Profile | Posted by | Options | Post Date |
|
Battenburg
|
Report
|
23 Mar 2009 19:42 |
Pamela.
Contact Allan direct because he might not see your reply
|
|
Allan
|
Report
|
23 Mar 2009 20:41 |
Hi Pamela
Thank you for this information, I will try to check it out.
First, an explanation: as you have probably seen from the earlier posts I was trying to trace my Grandfather, Clifford Mortimer, who on various certificates is described as an "Artist" or "Decorative Artist". This last was further expanded on his Death Certificate as "Decorative Artist Theatre and Cinema"
Apart from appearing on the 1911 census, Clifford does not appear on any other Census, at least not under the name of Clifford Mortimer. However, the census gave Clifford's place of birth as London
From my Grandfathers Certificate of marriage to Adelaide Coe in Fylde 1904 I found that his father was Joseph Mortimer Coach Trimmer who was deceased at the time of the marriage. Incidentally at the time of marriage myg/f was 44 and my g/m 23
I was not aware that there was a John Coe in London but I will try to search to see if there is a connection.
Whilst I am only in the early stages of my research most of my Coe family appear to have been in Northwich Cheshire.
Adelaide's mother, Annie Coe (maiden name as well as married name) was born in Cork and Adelaide's father was born in Manchester but in 1851 he appeared on the census as 17mths old living with an Uncle in Northwich
Please keep in touch and we may be able to share any connections.
I would finally add that I may not be able to respond immediately to any questions put on the thread as I live in Australia (Western) and the time difference means that I have to be up early (currently 5.38am ) to catch the mid -evening shift of people in the UK.
I try to get on the board each morning but you can always pm me, though as I have found, most people prefer a reply on the thread, as it also helps others who may also be doing research on your behalf
G'day to you Quinsgran, many thanks for your advice to Pamela
Regards to you both
Allan
|
|
Allan
|
Report
|
23 Mar 2009 20:49 |
Pamela,
My apologies, I should have said that I am also new to this but as you will see if you read through this thread, people on this site are incredibly generous with their assistance and research.
My daughter also purchased a years membership subscription to a local Family History Society and I use the resources there. The best present she has ever given me
Regards
Allan
|
|
EvieBeavie
|
Report
|
23 Mar 2009 22:01 |
Coach-related Coes in the 1881 census, for info:
Joseph E. Coe, 1858, coach builder, Peterborough George Coe, 1846, coach builder, London Alfred Coe, 1822, coach smith, Poplar
Now for Mortimers; this one's interesting - have we seen him?
Name: Robert Mortimer Age: 48 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1833 Relation: Lodger Where born: Ipswich, Suffolk, England Civil Parish: Islington County/Island: London Street address: 517 Liverpool Rd Condition as to marriage: Married Occupation: Coach Painter
|
|
EvieBeavie
|
Report
|
23 Mar 2009 22:23 |
Something rather interesting about the Robert Mortimer household.
This is the household in 1871 in Ipswich:
Robert Mortimer 39 Maria Mortimer 40 Emma Mortimer 13 Frederick Mortimer 12 Willie Mortimer 5 Ernest Mortimer 1
This is the household (Robert is away) in 1881:
Maria Mortimer 49 Willie. Mortimer 15 Ernest Mortimer 11 Alice Mortimer 5 Clifford Hallett 39 Fanny Hallett 39 Ada Hallett 16
There's a Clifford in the household.
Name: Clifford Hallett Age: 39 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1842 Gender: Male Where born: Athenstone, Yorkshire, England Lodger/visitor occupation: equestrian
And as we've been discussing in a couple of threads recently -- equestrian = circus performer.
What is the relationship here? I am very curious.
Not finding a Hallett-Fanny marriage on a quick search.
This is Fanny:
Name: Fanny Hallett Age: 39 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1842 Gender: Female Where born: Poole, Devon (it clearly says Dorsetshire) Occupation: Equestrian
This calls for some investigation. ;)
|
|
EvieBeavie
|
Report
|
23 Mar 2009 22:43 |
1871 - in Stockport, Cheshire, staying at publican's lodgings:
Clifford Wallett 29 - equestrian director Fanny Wallett 28 Elizabeth Wallett 8 Ada Wallett 6 William Wallett 2
1861 in Bradford, Yorkshire
Name: Clifford Wallet Age: 18 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1843 Relation: Visitor Where born: Kingston Upon Hull Occupation: horserider
John Speckman 25 - horserider Mary Speckman 23 John Speckman 6 Ruth A Speckman 1 Clifford Wallet 18
Births Dec 1842 Wallett Clifford Atherstone 16 209
No idea what the theory is, it's just all interesting!
|
|
EvieBeavie
|
Report
|
24 Mar 2009 00:07 |
Want another theory? ;)
... Nah. Just spent some time tracking down a Clifford Henry Marls Marles Marels born 1862 who was a coach painter in 1881, married Alice Coates 1895, but he's accounted for in all the censuses, and a house painter in 1901. Just so you know, he's ruled out!
|
|
Battenburg
|
Report
|
24 Mar 2009 04:24 |
G'day Allan.
Also from down under NZ
|
|
Allan
|
Report
|
24 Mar 2009 05:52 |
Hi EvieBeavie,
The connection you have made is interesting, however my Clifford would have been born around 1860 as his age (if he was truthful!) on his marriage certificate was given as 44. he was also given the rank of Batchelor not Widower. BUT i am now beginning to see from the work you have done, and bless you for it, how Clifford M could also have slipped through the cracks
Honestly, when I started this thread, I did not know that people would do research on behalf of some totally unknown person. It is truly a humbling experience.
My very sincere thanks to you once again
Regards
Allan
|
|
Allan
|
Report
|
24 Mar 2009 06:04 |
Hi again EvieBeavie
Just to compound the mystery I have found a Joseph Mortimer who died in Stockport prior to my grandparents wedding.
Clifford and Adelaide resided in Stockport for a while as their first born's birth was registered there in 1912 as was his death in the same year. ] My aunt Kathleen's birth was also registered in Stockport in 1913.
However my father's birth was registered in Broughton in 1915...the same area that my grandmother appeared in in the 1901 census as a domestic servant
Can someone please pass me the smelling salts!!
Regards
Allan
|
|
Allan
|
Report
|
24 Mar 2009 06:06 |
My sincere apologies, Quinnsgran, I totally failed to respond. How's NZ?
Regards
Allan
|
|
Battenburg
|
Report
|
24 Mar 2009 18:55 |
Hi Allan. Its going to be a lovely day here. The weather has been great this summer. Im on Aucklands North Shore. Where are you?
1891 census I found a ? Mortimer age 30 living Maryport Cockermouth I no longer subscribe to Ancestry and found this on another site. Can you check who this unknown Mortimer is?
Regards. Margaret
|
|
EvieBeavie
|
Report
|
24 Mar 2009 19:48 |
"(if he was truthful!)"
That is the big question. Given how young his bride, he might have minimized somewhat.
I wasn't meaning that Clifford Wallett was likely to be your Clifford though -- just that he was rather an interesting character, and he seemed to have some connection with a Mortimer household headed by a coach painter.
Clifford wasn't that common a name. And coach painter wasn't a hugely common occupation ...
What I was kind of wondering was whether Clifford Wallett might be connected to Mortimers by virtue of having had a child with one ... but I couldn't find any trace of such a being. ;)
|
|
EvieBeavie
|
Report
|
24 Mar 2009 19:53 |
"Just to compound the mystery I have found a Joseph Mortimer who died in Stockport prior to my grandparents wedding."
And where did you find that??
It doesn't seem to be at FreeBMD!
Prior to the wedding would be before 1904, if I'm following.
Lots of Joseph Mortimer deaths after, say, 1880, but none in Stockport. Are transcriptions of deaths still that spotty maybe, and it's missing still?
There are Mortimer deaths in Stockport after 1906 ... no Joseph ...
|
|
EvieBeavie
|
Report
|
24 Mar 2009 19:59 |
Let me continue my musings.
1901
Name: John Mortimer Age: 45 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1856 Relation: Boarder Where born: Birmingham Civil Parish: Stockport County/Island: Cheshire
John Bowen 64 - Showman Exhib. (impressario maybe?) Alice Bowen 56 - Showwoman Arthur Bowen 20 - Showman John Mortimer 45 John Read 27 - own means - visitor Annie Read 25 - own means - visitor Rosy May 20 - Vocalist - visitor
Occupation: COMEDIAN (annotated actor)
What that means is: clown. Or at least, vaudeville-type performer, given the cohabitants at the address.
As I mentioned, we've had another such here recently; someone who was described as clown in a later document in Australia (a child's marriage, I think), and in censuses was described as "equestrian commedian".
This Mortimer is a circus person too.
On your Clifford's death cert, he was: "Decorative Artist (Theatre and Cinema)".
Might he just have been connected with the circus, at least in earlier life, or come from a family that was?
Or with musical-comedy theatre?
|
|
EvieBeavie
|
Report
|
24 Mar 2009 20:10 |
In the 1881 census, all these Mortimers are Comedian / Actor:
Caroline Mortimer mother Alice abt 1870 Leeds, Yorkshire, England Daughter Southwark St George Martyr, London
David Henry Mortimer mother Alice abt 1866 Leeds, Yorkshire, England Son Southwark St George Martyr, London
George Charles Mortimer mother Alice abt 1846 Leeds, Yorkshire, England Son Southwark St George Martyr, London
John William Mortimer mother Alice abt 1862 Leeds, Yorkshire, England Son Southwark St George Martyr, London
Joseph Mortimer mother Alice abt 1851 Leeds, Yorkshire, England Son Southwark St George Martyr, London
John Mortimer abt 1842 Codnor Park, Derbyshire, England Boarder Basford, Nottinghamshire
Joseph Mortimer wife Annie abt 1841 London, London, Middlesex, England Brother (it's Boarder, not brother) Sheffield, Yorkshire
Interesting Joseph there. His household is:
Joseph Mortimer 40 Annie Mortimer 23 Dennis Mortimer 3
Bit of a May-December thing going on ...
|
|
EvieBeavie
|
Report
|
24 Mar 2009 20:17 |
And in 1881 with occupation "Theatrical", we have:
Nora Mortimer parents M., Annie abt 1864 Birmingham Daughter Bishopwearmouth, Durham
rather obviously not her parents:
M. Jones 23 - Theatrical Proffesional (Actor) Annie Jones 30 - Theatrical Proffesional (Actor) Nora Mortimer 17 - Theatrical Proffesional (Actor)
Percy Mortimer abt 1860 Dorking, Surrey, England Visitor Brighton, Sussex
Quite a cluster of these Mortimers.
My surname is relatively common in England. In 1881, there was only one person with that surname who was a Comedian.
|
|
EvieBeavie
|
Report
|
24 Mar 2009 20:26 |
Those Mortimers were once Hopwoods (or at least their mother was married to a Hopwood -- which came first I haven't figured out yet) -- matching birthplace (Leeds) and years:
1881:
Alice Mortimer 50 George Charles Mortimer 35 Joseph Mortimer 30 Annie Mortimer 22 > John William Mortimer 19 > David Henry Mortimer 15 > Caroline Mortimer 11 Frederick Harvey 19 - Comedian Martin Harvey 20 - Comedian Charles Burton 45 - Comedian James H. Smith 26 - Surgeon!
1871:
William Hopwood 45 - cabinet maker Alice D Hopwood 43 Mary A Hopwood 16 Emma Hopwood 13 Hannah Hopwood 11 > John Wm Hopwood 9 > David Hy Hopwood 6 George C Hopwood 4 (note George Charles Mortimer in 1881) > Caroline R M Hopwood 1 Leonora T Cook 13
Yup, they started out as Hopwoods; 1861:
William J Hopwood 35 Alice D Hopwood 32 Joseph P Hopwood 13 Mary A Hopwood 6 Emma Hopwood 3 Hannah Hopwood 1
Still no sign of a Clifford, but there are too many coincidences here!
|
|
EvieBeavie
|
Report
|
24 Mar 2009 20:39 |
1861 in Leeds:
William J Hopwood 35 Alice D Hopwood 32 > Joseph P Hopwood 13 Mary A Hopwood 6 Emma Hopwood 3 Hannah Hopwood 1
That Joseph is absent in 1871, and a comedian in the Mortimer household in 1881.
Births Mar 1870 HOPWOOD Caroline Rebecca Leeds 9b 382
She is Caroline R *M* Hopwood in 1871.
I think she maybe wasn't Alice's daughter, she was the daughter of a grown child. Like maybe Joseph.
Marriages Mar 1847 BEADNELL John Leeds 23 364 CALVERT Ellen Leeds 23 364 Firth Benjamin Leeds 23 364 > HOPWOOD William John Leeds 23 364 LOCKWOOD Edward Leeds 23 364 NETTLETON Elizabeth Leeds 23 364 > PARKER Alice Dixon Leeds 23 364 Wood Margaret Leeds 23 364
So the kids were all genuine Hopwoods.
But by 1881, they were all Mortimers.
Stage name?
|
|
Allan
|
Report
|
24 Mar 2009 21:02 |
Hi EvieBeavie,
My sincere apologies to you as yesterday I gave you some wrong information. Ishould have checked my notes first. What I did find in Freebmd was That there was a marriage recorded in Dec 1861 quarter for a Joseph Henry Mortimer ( Salford 8d 3)
Also Dec 1868 quarter Joseph Mortimer Stockport 8a 97
That was where the Stockport connection was
Deaths :
Joseph Henry Mortimer 1886 Dec quarter Chorlton 8c 477 (aged 65)
Joseph Mortimer 1895 Dec quarter Chorlton 8c 461 (aged 72)
At that stage i was researchingpersons whomay have married at about the time of my grandfather's birth (approx 1861) as I reasoned that a child who was very young at the time of a woman's second marriage (or even first marriage if she had a child out of wedlock) would be more likely to take the new step-father's surname than say a teenager.
Also I was looking for traces in areas that I knew my anscestors had lived in.
One final question...How in heavens name do you find the most amazing information that you do?
I know that I am a complete beginner at this but I would not have a clue how to do the indepth research that you present.
Again, my many thanks for your help and my apologies forputting an unintentional spoke in the wheel with that wrong information regardsing Joseph
|