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Crafty ... hehehe. Isn't the OH with her bobbins actually the crafty one though? :-D

I didn't say anything to your previous posting because I couldn't think of anything to say ... other than yes indeed, other people's families (if that is what this turns out to be) can be even more fun than one's own ! When they do at least have the same name and there is a hope of finding a connection, it at least doesn't seem like a complete loss.

What I did do when I saw your last posting was go off and read up on bobtails which i had never heard of ... almost as much fun as other people's families :-)

Jooney, we have an unknown number of Bobtails in the back garden, although I doubt that there are more than six.

Some are youngsters, given their smaller size, but the adults were at one stage feral ones that made their way into the garden.

We have never bought any, nor do we treat the ones we have as pets, but they do come to the back door on a regular basis where we give then various bits of fruit etc.

Since they have been here, the back garden has been remarkably clear of snails and slugs.

As for the certificates, I'm sending off for William and Sarah Ann's birth certificates, Sarah Ann's Marriage and Death Certificate and Robert Burroughs Death Certificate

I just need to recheck the details of the latter, as the only one I could find that fitted was in 1913 in Lancaster.

The surname has changed from Borroughs to Burroughs, but it is the only death I can find which is in an approximate geographical location to Manchester.

I also saw from two censuses that a girl with the surname Raine was present with Robert and described as Niece. Raine was Jane Mortimer's maiden name , and Jane came from Yorkshire.

I've done a search on FreeBMD for Robert from 1911 up to 1940, which I'll repeat before applying for the cert.

feral bobtails ... you mean these are domesticated beasties? I mean I would have thought they were feral by nature ...

ah okay ...

http://www.pilbarapythons.com/bobtail.htm

'The Bobtail lizard is one of the most well known and recognized lizards in Australia. They are one of the larger skinks in Australia and are commonly kept as pets.'

! my brother has an iguana as a 'pet' ... it doesn't actually do anything but he seems to like it

do bobtails ... I mean, do they go for walks on leashes, or curl up on your lap and keep you warm under the blankies on chilly evenings ... are they cute like guinea pigs ... can you litter train them, or do you keep them in bobtail containers ... do they learn tricks ... ??

the way you describe them is just like the feral cats where I am !


yes I know Jane Mortimer was a Raine, I'm the one who found her out and sent you off down this particular trail to we know not where :-)

:-D :-D :-D

Sorry, Jooney, I seem to think that everyone has a memory like mine :-D

I like to think that I'm trying to accumulate so much knowledge, that some it just oozes away. My wife, on the other hand, describes me as plain forgetful :-S

Regarding the Bobtails, we just let them have the run of the garden, which can be frightening at times as the tend to hide under the debris.

We also have two Guinea Pigs which we keep outside in a glorified rabbit hutch. If we are not careful the bobtails will spend the night in there. We let the GPs out during the day and leave the hutch open so that they can return whenever the want.

The bobtails sneak in and eat the GPs' food.

We can handle them, but have to be careful. Although they have no teeth, they do have very powerful jaws, and can inflict a painful bite.

Not your ideal cuddly creature :-D

I'm just waiting for a happy ending to this long journey and great story -

could you sell the rights for a film or a book - you would then get more finance

for certs ;-) ;-) ;-)

Mavis

:-D :-D :-D

Hello, Mavis, and welcome to the Thread.

I love all the threads that say something along the lines of "I only joined GR two days ago and I've already discovered sixteen cousins that I never knew about, and traced my own direct line back to William the Conqueror"

I've been here for nearly eight years and still can't find one grandfather :-D

My maternal grandfather was almost as elusive but I did manage to trace him via another site that I am a member of.

:-D :-D :-D :-D



I'll also be looking forward to the book



BTW ..........

......... Allan, I'm really hoping you will not stop posting your little jokes, and adventures with your better half :-D

Thanks Sylvia :-)

Well, the deed has been did! ;-)

I can also advise OH that I have saved us some pennies as I only needed five certificates, not six :-D

so you have 1 "in the bank" then!

:-D

I doubt it, Sylvia :-(

OH was querying the cost when I 'just happened' to mention that we had better transfer some money into our credit card account.

I don't know whether it is a female thing, but if I try to fib to my wife she says 'You've got that look on your face' :-S

My mother said the same thing when my brother and I got back from the pub, regarding our sobriety, but in her case we knew what she was going to say so had silly grins on in anticipation :-D

Allen at least you are slowly making progress -- I have an elusive Great grandfather - James Cooper born Cheshire 1834 ish only found him on the 1871 in Kensington just before his marriage in Lambeth -- 1 possible siting in Manchester 1861 so I have been at a bit of a loss as to what to think about him -- that's my progress in close on 10 years.

looking forward to your next bit of the story

Mavis

ps thought your bobtails were the 4 legged furry sort not lizard types

Mavis,

On paper my maternal grandfather should have been impossible to find.

All I had to go on was the surname of my mother and her brother, now both deceased. I knew that something had happened as they had elder half brothers and sisters.

Once I made the discovery that the surname they were using was not the surname under which their births were registered, I was able to obtain their birth certificates.

Both births were registered at the same address in Manchester, but three years apart.

I am a member of the Manchester and Salford Family History site and one of the members did a search of the electoral rolls for the respective years.

A match! A man with the surname which they both used throughout their later lives lived at the address.

With Clifford, as you will be aware, I have everything from 1904 until his death in 1930, but absolutely nothing prior to that.

At one stage I thought that there was a Canadian connection, and as you will see from posts from the very beginning of this thread, I have had fantastic help from Canadian members of GR in my search

I was an absolute beginner at Family History when I first started my search, but thanks to their gentle tutelage, I have become a moderately competent searcher :-)

It may not be obvious from their Board names but JoonieCloonie, JaneyCanuck, and EvieBeavie were three of those members :-D

I'm just the Joonie-come-lately :-D

those surname switchers are just the most fun, aren't they though?

mine are all good Englishmen ... well actually just the one good Englishman, by two different names and now the finding that his 'genetic' surname was a third altogether

it could be that his registered surname at birth (not the surname we knew him by at all), which was his mother's husband's surname (not that the parents were married, which they seem not to have been despite their large brood of children), was not the surname of his real father ... or that the father shown on his birth certificate had a real father who was not the one on his own baptism record ... or that sometime in the more distant past there was an unmarried mother who passed her own surname on and it became the family surname and the father's surname from that generation now shows up only in the genes ... or that two sons of the same man back more generations ago took on different surnames when surnames were invented ... and it's as likely as not that I'll never know! :-)

but that won't stop me from trying to find out, will it ?!

gosh .....................


I should be thankful that mine were not name changers .................



except possibly the one who parachuted into a small village in Buckinghamshire just in time to marry in 1740, with no previous record ever being found for him


People have been looking for him before 1740 since at least the 1980s :-)

Parish records in 3 neighbouring villages have been scoured, etc etc etc



I do love Allan's adventures, and the out-of-the-box suggestions made by various helpers on this thread :-D

I am still waiting for the arrival of the Certificates.

In the meantime, for whatever reason, I decided to check the newspaper archives on FMP to see if there was any mention of Francis Sutton. I suppose that I was thinking of an article or column regarding his wedding.

What I came up with was far more interesting.

The West Kent Guardian, dated12th November 1842 has a list of Army personnel movements between Regiments and Francis Sutton appears.

He was in the 7th Regiment of Foot and transferred to the 6th Dragoons.

In the same journal dated 11th June 1842 he is listed as a second lieutenant in the 5th Regiment of Foot who became a lieutenant, by purchase, in the 7th Regiment.

I've cut and pasted the information below from Google

"5th (Northumberland Fusiliers) Regiment of Foot Soldiers' documents
Formed as a Holland Regiment in 1674, it became the 5th Regiment in 1751. In 1774 the regiment arrived in Boston in July 1774, and the year after suffered terribly at the stubborn fight on Bunker's Hill. It fought at Long Island(1776), White Plains, Brandywine(1777), Germantown, and other early engagements during the War of Independence, and in November 1778 was among the troops sent from New York to the West Indies. The regiment returned home in 1780. From 1787 to 1797 the regiment was in Canada. Around 1811 the first battalion went from France to Canada, and served on the frontier during the American War, afterwards returning to Europe."

Tenuous I admit, but there is the possibility that Francis Sutton spent time in Canada.

The dates of the articles are before the dates (1845-1850) of the Canadian sketches but some of Francis's contemporaries may well have spent time there, and Officers' Messes being what they are Francis could well have kept in touch with them particularly as the would have been in the same social circles.

Just an idle thought :-)


Edit: I also found the corresponding London Gazette notices

Right, I now have the Certificates in my hot sticky hand, and they make interesting reading, although still nothing to tie Clifford in to this particular family.

I will post the details from the certificates via individual posts, and in chronological order, so as not to put up single post overflowing with details.

So, first cab off the rank, the birth of Sarah Ann Mortimer:

Registration District St George Hanover Square

Sub-district Hanover Square County of Middlesex

Where and when born: Fourteenth April 1854, 7 Mount Road, Hanover Square ( there is an amendment to the date, as the Registrar was originally going to put Fifteenth down)

Name: Sarah Ann

Father: Joseph Mortimer

Mother: Jane Mortimer formerly Raine

Occupation of Father: Publican

Informant: Joseph Mortimer, Father, 7 Mount Street

Date of Registration: Eleventh May 1854

I'm not sure whether the registrar was new, was intoxicated or what, but as well as the initial wrong date, Mount Road in the first column became Mount Street later on :-S

Birth of William Mortimer

Registration District: Billesdon

Sub-district of; Billesdon in the County of Leicestershire

When and Where Born: Twenty second February 1858, Skeffington

Name: William

Name and Surname of Father: Joseph Mortimer

Name and Surname of Mother: Jane Mortimer (formerly Rain)

Occupation of Father: Valet

Description and Residence of Informant: Joseph Mortimer, Father, Skeffington

When and where Registered Eighth July 1858

So, in the three years between the birth of the two children, Joseph is back in service as a valet, presumably at Skeffington Hall.

Ok, now for the marriage of Sarah Ann Mortimer, and boy do these places, and Church, ring a bell (no pun intended)

Marriage Solemnized in the Parish Church in the Parish of Birch in Rusholme in the County of Lancaster

When Married: September 20th, 1982

Name and Surname; Robert Borroughs and Sarah Ann Mortimer

Age: Both of Full Age

Condition: Bachelor/Spinster

Rank or profession Joiner (just a dash for Sarah)

Residence at time of Marriage: (Roger) Moor Street, Rusholme
(Sarah) Rusholme Grove Rusholme

Fathers' Names: Thomas Borroughs
Joseph Mortimer

Rank or Profession of Father Both are shown as Provision Dealers

They were married after the calling of Banns

Witnesses: Edwin Borroughs
Mary Borroughs and Sarah Wearmouth

Rusholme Grove is in Victoria Park in Manchester. I used to cut through that way when I was going to the Manchester branch library on Dickenson Road.

As a youngster, I was in the 23rd Manchester Birch Cub Pack, which met in the Church Hall of this Parish Church.

Ok, on to the Deaths :-(

First that of Sarah Ann

Registration District Chorlton

Sub-district of Chorlton upon Medlock in the County of Manchester

When and Where Registered: 29th July, 1895, 326 Otford (Oxford?) Street

Name and Surname: Sarah Ann Borroughs

Age: 41 years

Occupation: Wife of Robert Borroughs. a Joiner "Master"

Cause of Death: Puerperal mastitis (1 ½ months)
Sloughing Phagedaena. 14 days
Amputation Breast 7 days
Septicaemia

Certified my G R Gowland LRCP

Description and Residence of Informant: T Borroughs, Father-in-Law, In Attendance, 41 Moor Street, Rusholme

When Registered: Thirtieth July 1895

And last, but not least, Robert Borroughs Death Certificate, although his surname is now spelt Burroughs. But this one is interesting!

Registration District Lancaster

Sub-district of Lancaster in the County of Lancaster

When and Where Died: Thirtieth April 1913, Royal Infirmary

Name and Surname: Robert Burroughs

Age: 61 years

Occupation: Licenced Victualler, living at 492 Claremont Road, Rusholme Manchester

Cause of Death:

Injuries sustained by the accidental skidding and overturning of his motor car which he was driving on the 28 April 1913

Signature, Description and residence of informant:

Certificate received from L Neville Holden, Coroner for Lancashire. Inquest Held 1st May 1913

When Registered: Third May 1913


He must have been doing extremely well to be able to afford a motor car in 1913.

I'll try to see if there any newspaper reports from the time, because it would certainly have been a very newsworthy event in its day!