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Allan ...........


This is how Ancestry has transcribed your Joseph on the 1861 Census


It does look more like Mortiner on the image


1861 Census

Name: Joseph Mortensen
Age: 37
Estimated birth year: 1824
Relation: Servant
Gender: Male
Where born: Oakley, Bedfordshire, England
Civil Parish: Chorlton upon Medlock
Ecclesiastical parish: St Saviour
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Registration district: Chorlton
Sub-registration district: Chorlton upon Medlock

Marity Thanfman 61
Helene Thanfman 49
Lawson 33
Jean Broeon 37
Elisa Borah 25

Adolph Schwabe 38 Calico Printer employing (????) 300 men
Mathilda Schwabe 27
Maxmillian Schwabe 7
Marin Schwabe 5
George Schwabe 17 Visitor
Frederick Schwabe 16 Visitor
Marie Ann Bland 36 Nurse
Marie Kleck 29 Maid
Annie Jones 27 Housemaid
Betsy Norbury 32 Cook
Joseph Mortensen 37 Butler

Address:- 313 Oxford St



The two "Thanfmans" ............. actually Kaufman ..... and the 3 following actually live next door, at 311 Oxford Street.

Thanks for that, Sylvia.

I only have FMP, but had access to a free weekend on Ancestry, but couldn't find Joseph. No wonder!

I did try name variations but obviously didn't look hard enough :-(

I had found Joseph on FMP a few weeks ago but couldn't find him again (I had inadvertently unticked the surname variation box)

I've also had a few problems down-loading the images to my computer, but I think that I have solved that one :-)

Allan ...................

I couldn't find him either ........................ until I searched for Schwabe, a name from the fmp that you posted



elusive as ever!

Thank Heaven for that Sylvia :-D

That is in no way being Rude, but I do seem to miss the flaming obvious until it's pointed out to me :-S

My head was full of conspiracy theories yesterday, thinking that the entry had been removed 'by order' I do have a very active imagination :-D

Also, Joseph's wife was a housekeeper to two extremely prominent Baronets in 1851 (as Jane Raine) and in 1861 as Jane Mortimer so as usual I put two and two together and came up with 5 :-D

However, having had a family 'story' from my cousin (Clifford's granddaughter), I am formulating a hypothesis

No doubt when I postulate it, JoonieCloonie will shoot me down in flames with her impeccable logic :-)

Allan

Allan


I tried everything to find him under "his" name on the 1861 ................. even using Mort*


but ancestry wouldn't pull him out of the mix.



yet there he was when I tried Schwabe!





Mind you, I have had this same thing happen 3 or 4 times on ancestry over the last couple of weeks ................. both with a couple of my ancestors who I knew were on a census but I wanted to double check, and when looking to help someone on GR




It's very strange ...................... in every case, I've gone direct to the specific census to do the search, but the search will not find the person. When I do get to a very roundabout way ..................... there he or she is, with name spelled exactly as I've been inputting.




it's all meant to drive us even crazier than we already are :-D :-P

good one on the 1861 Joseph you two, I had lighted on the one I posted earlier

1861 in Bury Lancashire
Joseph Mortimer, married, 23, boarder, born London, house joiner(?)

but that was too hasty, it was the Bury connection that hooked me


Allan, the family story isn't too far-fetched to be real ... but in those situations it is generally more likely that the daddy is another member of the household staff than the head of household :-)

... although another option is the young master of the household, that was the case for the father of a great-aunt of mine when my gr-grandmother was a housemaid

the 1851 household in Leicestershire where Jane aged 30 was working has a 28-yr-old son who was an unmarried army captain ...

the DNA could tell the tale !!!

heh heh, someone has corrected son Francis's place of birth at Ancestry in 1901 ... Lincolnshire, not Liechtenstein :-S

the surname is also oft mistranscribed as Sutton rather than Satton

Joonie ...............



we have our moments :-)

and we all seem to be on the same page here ...

the couple Joseph Mortimer and Jane Raine look to be the pair to focus on, even though it seems to leave Clifford being not a Mortimer, and a decade older than his claimed age ... neither of which is the least surprising to anybody who has been around many family trees :-)

where 'coach painter' might come into it ... hm, it could be one of those common amalgams where the groom gives his stepfather's name as father (especially if the surname matches the one he uses) but his real father's details like occupation ...

JC

The young Francis is a Sutton, not a Satton.

Interestingly, in both 1851 and in 1861 Jane is working for the same family although the locations are different.

Also of Interest is that Francis (the Captain) married one Evelyn Mary Stuart Dawson Daner (not sure about the last name) on April 19 1855

Evelyn's father is shown as George Lionel Dawson Daner (?) Colonel

Correct Francis as his father is shown as Sir Richard Sutton Bart

It becomes better....Francis was married in St George, Hanover Square and his address is shown as Piccadilly.

Could Francis be the 'Gentleman' to whom Joseph Mortimer was shown as being Valet to on the 1851 Census?

I only have a copy of the parish record of the marriage, not an actual certificate.

I am also looking at Joseph and Jane's son William, who is a close fit for my grandfather's age, having been born in 1858.

As William does not seem to appear after the 1871 Census I have been trying to find a possible Death for him.

A William Mortimer does appear in the 1891 Census in Oldham and is shown as a Beer and Wine dealer

A death is shown for that William in the September quarter 1897.

I have also found two William Mortimer's who arrived in Liverpool from New York.

One was on the 'Umbria' and arrived on 7 th May 1891, the other arrived on the 'Campania' on 19 June 1893

Both are shown as 'Painter'

Two separate people or the same person twice?

(I had a free weekend access to Ancestry last weekend, which is where I found the two arrivals)

If the port of arrival had been anywhere other than Liverpool, I would probably dismissed them out of hand.

There is also a death for a William Mortimer in the June quarter 1901 in Chorlton but whose age is shown as 56 giving a potential d.o.b. of about 1845

In the meantime, you may be interested in looking at these sites

http://www.bing.com/search?q=Richard%20Sutton%20(Bart.)&PQ=ri&SP=1&QS=HS&SK=&sc=8-22&form=WLETSH&pc=WLEM


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sutton_baronets

DNA is looking very likely now :-D

Allan

Edit; I'm wondering if, for whatever reason, William may have changed his name to Clifford.

Still more eliminations to be made before that potential hypothesis can be considered

Also, I'm waiting for the Death Certs for both Joseph and Jane Mortimer.

I'm interested in who the informants were!

I won't be able to much this weekend as I have my nephew and his family staying with us. He is the one who is interested in the Family History.

He also changed his first name from Paul to Porle :-S I must ask him whether the change is a legal one, or just a whim

Interesting ........................


Allan ............



if you look on freebmd, Evelyn's surname is Damer, and her brother (???) got married around the same timee



Marriages Jun 1855 (>99%)

DAMER Evelyn Mary Stuart Dawson St Geo H Sq 1a 364
DAMER Lionel Seymour William Dawson St Geo H Sq 1a 364
MONTAGU Harriet Lydia St Geo Han Sq 1a 364
SUTTON Francis St Geo Han Sq 1a 364



from ancestry ....................

London and Surrey, England, Marriage Bonds and Allegations, 1597-1921

Name: Lionel Seymour William Dawson Damer
Age: 21
Birth Year: abt 1834
Event Date: 16 Apr 1855
Parish: St Pauls Wilton Place
County: Middlesex
Spouse's Name: Honourable Harriet Montagu
Spouse's Age: 21
Spouse's Parish: St Marylebone
Spouse's County: Middlesex
Event Type: Allegation
Reference Number: MS10091/232


It is a whole page detailing his application for a License to marry Harriet Montague

just out of silly interest :-)


from a Public Tree on ancestry



Lionel Seymour William DAWSON DAMER
Birth 7 Apr 1832 in Of, Emo Park, Leix, Ireland
Death 17 Dec 1892 in Bournemouth, , , England



Harriet Lydia Montagu
Birth 23 Jul 1829 in , Armagh, , Ireland
Death 23 Nov 1894 in Franham Royal, Buckinghamshire, , England





Title
1889 — Age: 57
Succeeeded his cousin as 4th Earl od Portarlington, an Irish peer




of course, you can't trust ancestry trees :-D


another one has ...........


Lionel Seymour William Dawson Damer 4th Earl of Portarlington
Birth 7 Apr 1832 in Brighton, Sussex, England
Death 17 Dec 1892 in Bournemouth, Dorset, England


Harriet Lydia Montagu Rokeby
Birth 23 Jul 1829 in Marylebone, London, England
Death 23 Nov 1894 in Farnham Royal, Buckinghamshire, England

Thanks Sylvia

On the face of I, there appears to be a strong connection, at least for Jane Mortimer (nee Rayne), with the Suttons

It does look as though the surname is DAMER

I'm not sure where that has left you though :-)

Neither am I Sylvia :-D

But it does give a possible connection between Jane and Joseph and how they met, if they were both working for the same family.

Just wondering why, when Jane was shown on the 1851 census as being at The Hall, Barrow upon Soar, Leicestershire, and being at Skeffington Hall, Skeffington, Billesdon, Leicestershire in 1861, her address (and Joseph's) in 1853 when they married (at St George Hanover Square) is shown simply as Piccadilly.

On the record I have for Francis, his address at the time of his marriage, is 96 Piccadilly

okay, still confused about Satton/Sutton ... I did find references in old papers etc to Richard Satton baronet but they could be misreadings too

the problem with William is that the whole reason I at least was looking at this family was the C Mortimer in 1871 and 1891 whose occupation matched your Clifford and who was born around or just before 1850 as I recall

this Joseph Mortimer isn't actually a coach painter so there would be no reason to settle on him as the Joseph Mortimer named on Clifford's marriage certificate

it would make sense if this Joseph Mortimer were his stepfather


if you do happen to settle on Sutton as your ancestral line ...

http://tinyurl.com/o3oqvs2

http://tinyurl.com/ouylb9a


train that nephew up !

Joonie,

Not that it is of any consequence, but I Googled Richard Satton Bart, but all the searches pulled up Sir Richard Sutton.

The only niggle I have with the C Mortimer and CG Mortimer is the date of Birth (as well as not being able to find them, or him, onFreeBMD)

While it may happen with actors etc today, I can't see 50 odd year old male marrying a 20 something female back in 1904

Clifford certainly didn't appear to have pots of money given that they were boarding in 1911

oh, I don't know about that!!



some gilrs obviously decided that it was better to marry an old man than to be a spinster ..................


and equally obviously decided they didn't mind being a nurse, or an old man's darling


I have actually heard of young women marrying men older than 50


I came across one just the other week.

I was helping someone on here ............... and it turned out that the woman she was looking for was living as Housekeeper for the man in one census (I think the 1901). She was aged 20 or 21, he was in his 60s ................ and she already had 2 very young children.

By the next census, they said they were married, and had several more children.

He had had at least 2 previous wives, and children with each of them ............................


.................... and he was only an Ag Lab!



Remember, there wasn't much else for women to do then other than marry, work a menial job, be a servant in someone's house, be a "companion" for some witchy old woman ........... or go on the streets.

'A William Mortimer does appear in the 1891 Census in Oldham and is shown as a Beer and Wine dealer'

in 1871 in Rusholme Joseph was a provisions dealer
in 1881 he was a beer and provision dealer
in 1891 he was with his sister Elizabeth Elms? who is a grocer and beer retailer and he is a squiggle which could mean a ditto

(in 1891 Jane is with her married daughter Sarah Ann Borroughs in Rusholme)


the William Mortimer in the 1891 was 35 (c1856) and a beerseller born in Oldham

however ... he is not your William son of Joseph and Jane ... in 1871 and 1881 he is in Oldham with parents Frederick and Betsey

so yes, Joseph and Jane's William is elusive after 1871


FMP has these two outbound passengers that would match with the inbound you noted (I don't have access to passenger records at either FMP or Ancestry)

W MORTIMER — LIVERPOOL 1890 NEW YORK United States
WM MORTIMER 1858 LIVERPOOL 1893 NEW YORK United States

(the other W Mortimers travelling 1890-1894 had middle initials)

they certainly sound like the same person in the inbound records you found ... not likely two of that name were painters


on what Sylvia said ... it could even be that Adelaide was Clifford's housekeeper before they married

on Sutton/Satton, I looked at the image again and yes, Satton is just an Ancestry misreading of Sutton :-)
see the links in my last post to the print of the baronet riding to hounds etc. (I think the seller didn't know what the 'Bart' meant)


so many side trips, so little progress !!!

yes it will be interesting to see who the informants of Joseph's and Jane's deaths were