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Joonie,,

Forgive the tardy response.

I have my nephew staying with me this weekend, together with his wife and eight year old daughter.

I'd forgotten how exhausting an eight year old can be, particularly when she discovers our two Guinea Pigs in the Garden :-D

Then last night my two adult children were here with their respective partners etc. Quite a houseful, and very noisy once the alcohol was flowing

Thanks for the information on William of Oldham: I had found his birth.

I'm going to have to revisit FMP :-|

I did check the outgoing passenger lists, but couldn't see William, then again I do find records on FMP and then can't see them again for a while.

I do try to download anything which seems relevant, but sometimes, for whatever reasons, the download fails.

What is the saying about artificial intelligence being no match for natural stupidity

Allan

just another note, I checked out an 1878 marriage for a William Mortimer in Chorlton reg dist where the family was in 1871 and Joseph and Jane remained

but in 1881 that William was with wife Agnes in Chorlton and was born in 1850 in Scotland


that response wasn't tardy at all, heavens ... now stop feeding your nephew alcohol! :-D

Allan! I just checked my DNA email inbox and the big end of summer sale is on.

https://www.familytreedna.com/y-dna-compare.aspx

scroll down ... you want the YDNA-67 test, now on at $199 US down from regular $268
(they only do prices in USD)

this is the time to do it ... there will probably be a Christmas sale too, but why wait ?!

any close match you receive at the 67-marker level will be meaningful (at 37 it might not be) and then you can decide whether to test further to try to narrow down the relationship

(my male rellie matched so closely at 67 that I have not upgraded to 111 because it probably would not tell us any more ... the differences that there already are at 67 suggest the match is virtually definite but probably means a common ancestor in the 1500s or 1600s and going to 111 would not prove anything better than that)

the sale ends on what they call 9/3/2014 which is September 3

Joonie,

I will need to revisit your PM's re security, but you're right. "If 'twere done, then it better be done swiftly, than not at all"

Or something like that :-D

Joonie,

Just a thought.

I was showing the book about Stanley Barracks by Aldona Sendzikas and the copies of the sketches of the New Fort etc

Something niggled at the back of my mind and when I revisited the sketch book I realised that the last sketch was drawn in Canada in 1850.

Thereafter the pad is blank

In the 1851 Census Francis is listed at The Hall, Barrow upon Soar and he is shown as a Captain in the Army.

If I could find out which Regiment Francis was in I could see where he may have been stationed prior to the 1851 census

If, and that's a big if, it was in Canada that could provide a link between the Sketch books and the Mortimers


Allan

very interesting thought

1901 census - Captain Horse Guard(s)

other censuses just say late/retired captain in army


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse_Guards

not much help


here we are

http://www.thepeerage.com/p5059.htm#i50589

Captain Francis Sutton was born on 2 September 1822.
He was the son of Sir Richard Sutton, 2nd Bt. and Mary Elizabeth Burton.
He married Lady Evelyn Mary Stuart Dawson-Damer, daughter of Colonel Rt. Hon. George Lionel Dawson-Damer and Mary Georgiana Emma Seymour, on 19 April 1855.
He died on 26 November 1906 at age 84, with another s (died young):. (? it says that)
He was also known as Francis Sutton.
>> He was Captain Royal Horse Guards.
Child of Captain Francis Sutton and Lady Evelyn Mary Stuart Dawson-Damer
1. Captain Francis Richard Hugh Seymour Sutton+ b. 22 Jul 1858, d. 28 Mar 1926


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Horse_Guards

As the regiment's uniform was blue in colour at the time, it was nicknamed "the Oxford Blues", from which was derived the nickname the "Blues." In 1750 the regiment became the Royal Horse Guards Blue and eventually, in 1877, the Royal Horse Guards (The Blues).

The regiment served in the French Revolutionary Wars and in the Peninsular War. Two squadrons fought, with distinction, in the Household Brigade at the Battle of Waterloo.


everything just skips over the mid-19th century

switching tracks again ... there is a Sutton project at ftdna :-)

https://www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?Group=Sutton

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Sutton/

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Sutton/default.aspx?section=ycolorized

but it's one of the ones where the table doesn't show ancestral origins


there's a Mortimer one too

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Mortimer/default.aspx

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Mortimer/default.aspx?section=ycolorized

it doesn't have any Bedfordshire origin Mortimers but then one never knows what came before Bedfordshire

Fertiliser! :-|

Why can't things be straightforward?

Joonie, I do not want to claim any relationship with the rich and famous, but at least the poor and normal could make themselves known

Thanks for the links, I'll check them out :-)

just puddling a bit more

unfortunately no record seems to have survived here

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/household-cavalry-soldiers.htm

Household Cavalry soldiers' service records 1799-1920 ... Royal Horse Guards ...


FMP military records does show

Sutton Francis — — 1840 Harts Army List 1840 Great Britain

which could be a possible


there are alliances between household Household Cavalry outfits in Canada and Britain it seems but I see nothing about British Horse Guards in Canada

of course it is possible that someone was in an entirely different military unit and joined the Horse Guards later

okay here is something from the London Gazette, which is nearly impossible to get decent search results from now

1849
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/21054/page/3943
... War-Office, 28th December 1849. Royal Regiment of Horse Guards, Captain Francis Sutton, from the 6th Dragoons, to be Captain, vice Brevet Major Hanmer, who exchanges.

so there we are, he was in the 6th Dragoons

(that info is what also appears in the Army List publications ... just google "francis sutton" "6th dragoons")

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6th_%28Inniskilling%29_Dragoons

but no apparent Canada connection ...


oops at least two people have FS 1822 in their trees here at GR

Richard did have several other sons as well of course

http://www.thepeerage.com/p5059.htm#i50583

Joonie,

Re Army Service. I've had a look at a couple of websites, both of which indicate that most Cavalry Units (of which the 6th Dragoons was one) usually went to India as part of their 'tour' I don't know about the Horse Guards or the Lifeguards.

I am assuming that after the Napoleonic wars they may have been more or less 'home based' given their respective prestigious status.

The 1861 Census does show that two of Richard Sutton's brothers (Charles and Henry G) were retired Officers. There is no indication as to whether they were Army or Navy, but given the family's love of horses, I suspect that it will be Army.

I'll check it out.

Joonie, I'll probably have to leave the DNA testing until Christmas, if there is a sale on then.

I'd forgotten that Wednesday is my son's birthday, Friday is our Wedding Anniversary and I owe $300.00 as from 1st September for membership fees for an organisation of which I am a member.

And just for the icing on the cake, our Council rates are due on the 12th.

If I spend anything else this month, my wife will ensure I get to ask Clifford personally just what his origin was :-(

On a more serious note, because I will do the DNA test, can you register for two family names?

I still haven't had a more thorough look at the website

all you need to do with the YDNA test is do it

matching is automatic ... you get notices of people who match at various levels of markers

but you can sign up to as many projects as you like ... my testee on one side of the family is signed up to three different surnames, because any one of them might be the 'real' surname (the one that seems to be the real one was revealed solely by the matching process as it was one never suspected anytime in recorded memory)

once you have tested you just send a message to the administrator for any project you like and say this is one of the suspected surnames in your paternal line, and then you get signed up and also automatically slotted in with any person or group that you match up with, if there is any

it all only works if someone your YDNA matches with has actually tested there ... and you can imagine what the odds of that are, and how insanely lucky I was to get the match I did

on the other side of my family, I got a 100% match when I uploaded the results to Ancestry where it turned out the matching person had tested ... I already knew who he was because we had 'met' through Ancestry before and I knew that he has the same greatx2 grandfather as my testee ... so we know that from there on down, both our lines are 'legitimate' :-D

there's sure to be a Christmas sale of some sort ... don't forget to ask Santa!

My thanks for that, Joonie, I keep forgetting about the power of computers and databases :-S

Joonie,

Co-incidence, circumstantial evidence?

With the help of my nephew, we've been doing a search on the properties in Manchester where Joseph (1871) and Clifford (1911) lived.

Apparently. Monmouth Street's name was changed to Claremont Road.

Greame Street was less than a mile away.

I will have to revisit the relative Joseph was visiting in 1891 (from memory, Joseph's sister) and find a date of death for her.

Now, and this is purely co-incidental, as a young child I lived in the same area. I went to a primary school very close to where Clifford and Adelaide lived.

My brother went to a Secondary School on Claremont Road

:-S :-S :-S

I am still not claiming Joseph as a relative at the moment, and I don't want to jump on small items and use them, just because they 'fit' in with my perceptions.

Update, and my apologies for the late response. I've had a few issues to deal with

Deaths;

Jane Mortimer died 10th December1892, at 43 Monmouth Street, Rusholme, Manchester. Informant R Burroughs (Borroughs) son-in-law of the same address

Joseph Mortimer died 17th January 1896 at the Union Workhouse Withington. Cause of death was pneumonia. Informant Robert Borroughs, son-in-law, 43 Monmouth Street, Rusholme, Manchester.

In the 1901 Census Robert Borroughs is still shown at Monmouth Street as a Beer Retailer, but on the image the enumerator has added the word pub, which I suppose could be either Publican or Public House

he is still there in 1911, although the address is now 492 Claremont Road, Rusholme.

Monmouth's Street name was changed to Claremont Road.

Joseph's sister, Elizabeth Elms, who was shown running the Monmouth Street business in the 1891 Census, pops up in 1901at 10 Moor Street (House and shop) as a Grocer and Beer Retailer.

In 1911, she is living with her niece and nephew, Charles and Elizabeth Craven, in Long Hedges Boston, Lincolnshire. Charles is now a Farmer and Market Gardner, but in 1901 he and his wife were living with Elizabeth Elms and presumably helping in the business.

Elizabeth Elms herself is a bit of a character

In the 1871 Census she is shown as living in Manchester (Back Mosley Street) and married to one John Elms, bricklayer.

Elizabeth is 37, John is 28.

I can't find a marriage for the pair. I've searched from 1861, when Elizabeth was at Skeffington until 1871 when she pops up married to John.

After 1871 I haven't been able to find John Elms, although the various censuses have many J. E.'s shown in various Mental Institutions within the Lancashire area.

In 1881 lo and behold Elizabeth turns up In Altrincham, Cheshire as housekeeper to one John Fred Cooke who is shown as being a Salesman (Dealer) Calico printer.

I'm wondering that as Joseph once worked as a Butler to a calico printer, whether he helped Elizabeth find that position?

Elizabeth is still 'married' in 1881, but a widow by 1891. Again I have searched between those dates and can't find a death for John Elms, which would fit with his approx. age.

Joseph and Jane's daughter Sarah Ann died in 1895. I haven't got the actual cert but have found it on FreeBMD, where I also found her Marriage to Robert Borroughs in 1882.

I think that I'll send off for the missing certificates so that I at least have a complete set

Now, as to my hypothesis regarding the William Mortimer who went to America and returned and may have changed his name; I have since found that he returned from his second trip to America in November 1904 which blows my thoughts right out of the water as Clifford married Adelaide in August 1904 :-(

Even if it is the wrong Mortimer family it has been a fascinating journey with them.

Just another thought. If Robert Borroughs was the last (by marriage) of the Mortimer relatives, who would have reported his death?

I'll try to find his death and send off for the certificate

Curiouser and curiouser, cried Alice

Whilst waiting for further certificates, or more precisely, waiting for the right time to advise my wife that I was about to send off for at least six more certificates, I have done some further work on FMP.

More precisely, on the Westminster Collection on that site.

As you are aware Joseph and Jane Mortimer's eldest child, Sarah Ann, was born in 1854 with the birth being registered at St George's Hanover Square.

The Baptism Records show that Sarah Ann was baptised in the Parish of St George, Hanover Square on the 14th May, 1854

Parents shown as Joseph and Jane, living in Mount Street

Now for the oddity; for some reason, the Parish Records show the 'Quality, Trade or Profession' of the father.

Joseph now pops up as a Publican

Admittedly, the children who appear on either side of Sarah Ann
and Baptised on the same day, have father's shown as Servants, so it could be a simple mix-up by a harassed Vicar.

By the way, I now have OH's approval to send off for the Certificates OH is into crafts, particularly Quilting Sewing and Embroidery.

Yesterday I was shown a colour chart of various threads she needs for her new machine (new for her, but a second hand one). The threads cost $A10.00 a bobbin.

I agreed the OH could purchase as many as were required, and then casually dropped into the conversation that I required a 'few' more certs. Nothing said :-D

you crafty beggar!!

:-D :-D :-D

:-D :-D :-D

You just have to wait for the right moment, Sylvia ;-)

:-D :-D :-D

I know :-D

Six certificates being ordered soon.

Whether this Mortimer family is related or not, it's been a fascinating journey through its history.

There are just too many co-incidences, or at least, my mind wants to make a connection