Find Ancestors

Something rather interesting about the Robert Mortimer household.


This is the household in 1871 in Ipswich:

Robert Mortimer 39
Maria Mortimer 40
Emma Mortimer 13
Frederick Mortimer 12
Willie Mortimer 5
Ernest Mortimer 1


This is the household (Robert is away) in 1881:

Maria Mortimer 49
Willie. Mortimer 15
Ernest Mortimer 11
Alice Mortimer 5
Clifford Hallett 39
Fanny Hallett 39
Ada Hallett 16


There's a Clifford in the household.

Name: Clifford Hallett
Age: 39
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1842
Gender: Male
Where born: Athenstone, Yorkshire, England
Lodger/visitor
occupation: equestrian


And as we've been discussing in a couple of threads recently -- equestrian = circus performer.

What is the relationship here? I am very curious.

Not finding a Hallett-Fanny marriage on a quick search.

This is Fanny:

Name: Fanny Hallett
Age: 39
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1842
Gender: Female
Where born: Poole, Devon (it clearly says Dorsetshire)
Occupation: Equestrian


This calls for some investigation. ;)

Coach-related Coes in the 1881 census, for info:


Joseph E. Coe, 1858, coach builder, Peterborough
George Coe, 1846, coach builder, London
Alfred Coe, 1822, coach smith, Poplar


Now for Mortimers; this one's interesting - have we seen him?

Name: Robert Mortimer
Age: 48
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1833
Relation: Lodger
Where born: Ipswich, Suffolk, England

Civil Parish: Islington
County/Island: London

Street address: 517 Liverpool Rd
Condition as to marriage: Married
Occupation: Coach Painter

Pamela,

My apologies, I should have said that I am also new to this but as you will see if you read through this thread, people on this site are incredibly generous with their assistance and research.

My daughter also purchased a years membership subscription to a local Family History Society and I use the resources there. The best present she has ever given me

Regards

Allan

Hi Pamela

Thank you for this information, I will try to check it out.

First, an explanation: as you have probably seen from the earlier posts I was trying to trace my Grandfather, Clifford Mortimer, who on various certificates is described as an "Artist" or "Decorative Artist". This last was further expanded on his Death Certificate as "Decorative Artist Theatre and Cinema"

Apart from appearing on the 1911 census, Clifford does not appear on any other Census, at least not under the name of Clifford Mortimer. However, the census gave Clifford's place of birth as London

From my Grandfathers Certificate of marriage to Adelaide Coe in Fylde 1904 I found that his father was Joseph Mortimer Coach Trimmer who was deceased at the time of the marriage. Incidentally at the time of marriage myg/f was 44 and my g/m 23

I was not aware that there was a John Coe in London but I will try to search to see if there is a connection.

Whilst I am only in the early stages of my research most of my Coe family appear to have been in Northwich Cheshire.

Adelaide's mother, Annie Coe (maiden name as well as married name) was born in Cork and Adelaide's father was born in Manchester but in 1851 he appeared on the census as 17mths old living with an Uncle in Northwich

Please keep in touch and we may be able to share any connections.

I would finally add that I may not be able to respond immediately to any questions put on the thread as I live in Australia (Western) and the time difference means that I have to be up early (currently 5.38am ) to catch the mid -evening shift of people in the UK.

I try to get on the board each morning but you can always pm me, though as I have found, most people prefer a reply on the thread, as it also helps others who may also be doing research on your behalf

G'day to you Quinsgran, many thanks for your advice to Pamela

Regards to you both

Allan

Pamela.

Contact Allan direct because he might not see your reply

l am researching the Coe family which is full of mysteries. l almost discarded your message but l noticed you referred to Adelaide Coe and to Mortimer's father as a Coach Trimmer. My John Coe was a coach trimmer [1870] and l wondered if he could have been a colleague of Mortimer and that is how he met Adelaide.
A real long shot as the family appeared to reside in London mostly.
l am impressed with your research as l am new to this! Regards, Pamela.

Good Morning from oz,

I now have Clifford's death certificate which shows the he died in Salford Royal Hospital in 1930 (21st October) He and Adelaide were living at 4 Howe (Hove?) Street Broughton. Clifford was 70 at the time he died.

On the certificate his occupation is listed as "Decorative Artist (Theatre and Cinema)"

One further point of interest is that although Clifford and Adelaide were marrried at Fylde in the Count of Lancaster and they were shown as living at the same address (114 Albert Road Blackpool) which may have been a hotel or boarding house, at the time of their marriage, in the 1901 census my grandmother was listed as a domestic sevant with a family in Broughton

Hi to you both

Many thanks for the information, It is still confusing as the 1911 (English) census shows Clifford as living in Manchester at 14 Greave Street and lists his place of birth as London. He was 50 at the time of the census and that also ties in with his age at his mamarriage to Adelaide. He was 44 and she was 23. I have obtained a copy of their marriage certificate.

The sketch pads may be a completetly false clue, although one does contain pencil sketches of designs on the sides of horse drawn coaches which ties in with the profession of Clifford's father, Joseph, who was a coach trimmer. Also, there is a name in one of them which I can't recall without getting the pads out again but when I googled that name it turned out to be a fairly prominent Architect working in the late 1800's/early1900's in Scotland but mainly desiging schools.

As to the dates given in the pad I have to assume that these are correct as they are handwritten. Even allowing for them to have been added later I would not expect to much of a date difference. This would be similar to me cataloguing all my old photo/s and slides. Whilst I may have forgotten precise dates I think that I would be able to get within a couple of years (particularly if I undertook the task before starting to drink the odd glass of red wine!)

Hopefully, I am off to the Family History Society today so I will take all the information which you both kindly supplied and see what turns up.

Once again my sincere thanks to you both

Allan

I wondered whether the earlier work might have been by Clifford's parent, and Clifford was maybe born in Canada.

No Mortimers born in Canada who look related show up in the censuses. And I don't have Cdn records access at Ancestry to look.

There's a Joseph Mortimer in the 1871 census of Canada born 1849-50 in England, living in Toronto. The 1871 census seems to be accessible free of charge, but unfortunately only lists heads of household. That Joseph was a Stove Mounter. He doesn't really seem to be in subsequent censuses.

Ontario births are accessible at Ancestry, but not elsewhere on the net, as far as I know. There are Mortimer births in York county to Joseph Mortimer father, but no Clifford.

There are two Mortimers in the 1901 census born in Canada: a Miss Mortimer 1876 in what looks like a ladies' boarding house in Kensington and a Henry Edwin Morgimer 1856 in Wiltshire.

In 1891, an Arthur Mortimer 1867 Canada is a patient in Kensington. And this person:

Name: Thurcason Eyn Mortimer - I might say Thuresson Eyre
Age: 33
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1858
Relation: Head
Gender: Male
Where born: Canada
Civil Parish: St George in The East
Occupation: General Practitioner Registered

If Clifford was from a class that he might have had means to live on apart from an occupation, there could be a connection. But Clifford's father was a coach trimmer ...

1881 has a few Canadian Mortimers, at least per Ancestry and without checking images.

There is also the odd Mortimer in the censuses born in India, and I'd searched at fibis.org but not found anything relevant.

Another one like the 1881 surgeon is in 1871:

Name: O S Mortimer
Age: 23
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1848
Relation: Boarder
Where born: Adelaide, Canada
Civil Parish: St Marylebone
Occupation: Law Student

I don't think there is an Adelaide, Canada, but that's what the image says. (There's an Adelaide, Australia.)

This 1871 household in Bethnal Green could be the source of the professional Mortimers:

Cecil Mortimer 58 - widowed, chief clark in banker's office, born Shropshire
Herbert B Mortimer 23 - assistant clerk, born Canada, Paton
Alfred Tracey Mortimer 16 - clerk in tea merchant's office, born Canada, Paton
Herbert Mortimer 50 - brother, married public notary (Canada), born Shropshire

I have no idea what Paton, Canada, is.

HI Allan

I was going to ask whether you had any of his artwork that may give a clue as to where he may have been but you've thrown me into confusion with the Toronto sketch in 1842!

Is the date a typo or are we actually looking for someone much older?

Victoria

Hi Victoria,

I did send a response but it hasn't appeared for some reason. Absolutely nothing offensive so it shouldn't have been deleted. Anyway, I'll try again.

My nephew suggested something similar and I must admit that whilst I knew that the Victorian poets did the grand tour I never gave a thought to artists doing the same.

Although earlier then my grandfather's birth, I do have a sketchbook with water colour drawings of Toronto in 1842, as well as other settlements in Canada. It is possible that there is a Canadian connection but a search of passenger lists and Canadian censuses have not shown any positive results

regards

Allan

If he was an artist he may well have been on the "grand tour" in Europe or living the Bohemian life in Paris!

Hi EvieBeavie,

I enjoyed the TV series, but can't say that I have read the Rumpole books.

The co-incidence of names continues. My brother's name is John and my aunt's name was Kathleen who was the daughter of the Clifford I am trying to research.

Clifford and Adelaide also had a baby boy in 1912, which they named Clifford. Unfortunately, his date of death is also shown as 1912.

Again, many thanks for the information provided: I will print this off and take it with me on my next visit to the Australind Family History Society. The librarians there are rather intrigued by clifford, especially the age difference between him and my grandmother.

Given his age I find it remarkable that he does not appear in the 1891 or 1901 census when he would have been an adult (approx 31 and 41 respectively.

You do know, there is such a coincidence of names:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Mortimer

Sir John Clifford Mortimer, CBE, QC (21 April 1923 – 16 January 2009)[1] was an English barrister, dramatist, screenwriter and author.

Mortimer was born in Hampstead, London, the only child of Kathleen May (née Smith) and Clifford Mortimer.



She Who Must Be Obeyed!

A Rumpole fan at all? ;)

1861


Name: Clifford Walker
Age: 1
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1860
Relation: Son
Father's Name: George J
Mother's Name: Sophia C
Where born: London, Middlesex, England

Civil Parish: West Ham

George J Walker 46 -- coach maker
Sophia C Walker 38
Mortimer Walker 19
Howard C G Walker 9
Clifford Walker 1
Emma Burt 14


But the J is for James:

Marriages Sep 1840
WALKER George James E London 2 194
WHITTLE Sophia Caroline E. London 2 194

and in 1881 that Clifford is still with his parents and is a coach maker.

It's awfully like -- in 1881:


Name: Clifford Montague
Age: 23
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1858
Relation: Brother
Where born: Tilehurst, Berkshire, England

Civil Parish: Morthoe
County/Island: Devon
Street address: Spring Cottage
Registration district: Barnstable

>> Occupation: Artist (Pr 3/7)

Julia M. Furze 25 - head, widowed, annuitant
Mabel M. Furze 3
Clifford Montague 23
Sarah J. Yeo 15


Their births

Births Dec 1854
Montague Julia Matilda Windsor 2c 345

Births Mar 1858
Montague Clifford Bradfield 2c 329


His marriage:

Marriages Sep 1882
Montague Clifford Holsworthy 5b 821
Risdon Fanny Jane Holsworthy 5b 821
Risdon Mary Elizabeth Holsworthy 5b 821
Roberts John Holsworthy 5b 821


1891:

Civil Parish: Lapley
Town: Wheaton Aston
County/Island: Staffordshire

Clifford Montaque 30 - artist
Jane Montaque 28
Dudley Montaque 7
Stanley Montaque 5
Dorothy Montaque 1
Lucey Phillips 19


1901:

Jane Montaque 38 - "wife", married
Dudley Montaque 17
Dorothy Montaque 11
Courtney Montaque 7
Primrose Montaque 5
Mabel Montaque 4
Ralph Montaque 3
Trepmois Montaque 1 (I can't read it offhand)

No Clifford present. No Clifford in evidence in the 1901 census.

The last child is Claude Trefusis; there are 5 births in Cannock 1893-1899.

Births Dec 1893
Montague Alfred Courtney Cannock 6b 479

Births Jun 1895
Montague Hannah Primrose

Births Sep 1896
Montague Mabel Victoria Cannock 6b 503

Births Mar 1898
Montague Charles Herbert R Cannock 6b 516

Births Sep 1899
Montague Claude Trefusis Cannock 6b 518


The entire lot of that household have disappeared by 1911 -- I can't find them by first or last name, living together or alone, or any other thing.


Oops, here's Clifford Montague in 1901:

Name: Clifford Montague
Age in 1901: 42
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1859
Relation: Visitor
Gender: Male
Where born: Tilehurst, Berkshire, England

Civil Parish: Llandyssiliogogo
County/Island: Cardiganshire
Country: Wales

Herbert Mitchell 31
Clifford Montague 42 - artist (painter)
Stanley Montague 15 - servant, falconer
Alfred A Jeffries 49


Yup, looks like the Montagues relocated to Wales, and that's why they're not showing up in 1911 yet. National Archives:


[no title] DE5047/11/1-9 1912 - 1913

These documents are held at Leicestershire, Leicester and Rutland Record Office

Contents:
Letters and accounts from Clifford Montague, Talgareg, Llandyssil, S. Wales to Capt. Packe for cleaning and revarnishing paintings at Stretton Hall and Glen Hall.


All these things must be done to rule 'em all out ...

Placing Adelaide in 1901:

Name: Adelaide Coe
Age: 19
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1882
Relation: Servant
Where born: Northwich, Cheshire, England

Civil Parish: Broughton
Registration district: Salford
County/Island: Lancashire

John Moorhouse 31
Ann Moorhouse 31
Carrie Moorhouse 3
Charles Moorhouse 1
Adelaide Coe 19

Adelaide was actually born 1881

Births Jun 1881
COE Adelaide Northwich 8a 268

I know Allan knows that bit, but it's useful info for testing -- she lost a couple of years by 1911, e.g.

Oh -- and I was specifically looking for a Clifford with a remarried mother and a stepfather, because this was indeed very common.

Alan says by PM:

My sincere apologies for not replying personally to you. I am new to Genes Reunited and didn't know how to reply to individual messsages.
My Grandfather's Marriage Certificate did yield the information but trying to trace him from there has been difficult. if not impossible but I am still working on it.


You apologize without cause, Alan. ;)

Everybody always prefers to get replies in the thread - probem being that new people usually have no clue how to reply in a thread. I see you worked it out!

I actually spent a fair bit of time dredging around the censuses and FreeBMD for your Mortimer last night, to absolutely no avail.

But something I looked at somewhere last night, on an original census image, had somebody as an "artist in painting". I cannot remember whether it was something I was looking at in connection with your Mortimers. Let me go and scratch my head and see what I can backtrack to.