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Hi Nicky,

Forgive my madness, you have already listed the 1881 entry above. I have also traced them on the 1901 census, although both John & Harriet are still in Sutton, they have split up with Harriet & some of the children on one entry, she as a charwoman & head of household & John James Hayes listed as a general dealer, but as the birthplace for him is the same as John Hayes listed with Harriet earlier, I think it is him. The 1887 marriage between a John Hayes & Harriet Clarke may be a different couple, but I'll put that on the back burner for now.

Will do some more work on the Robert Hayes/ Harriet Clarke marriage. I'm still unsure how John William's birth would have been registered in terms of surname, but I agree that fathers name for the other Hayes children might shed more light on the situation.

Thanks very much for your help, it is so easy to overlook or discount a piece of information, your " fresh pair of eyes" has proven valuable.

Julie

Hi Nicky,

The later marriage I had picked up on in 1887 & thought related to "my" Harriet, between Harriet Clarke & John Hayes, may I think be a different couple, to your census detail above, I think I found an 1881 census entry for this family with their oldest child during an earlier session of digging - will check my notes tomorrow. In theory this couple would have married earlier than 1887, given that their oldest child was 11 in 1891, but I appreciate they could have left it late to tie the knot!

Julie

The 1881 census gives the same POB details for Harriett...


HAYES, John Head Married M 24 1857 Fisherman
Wisbech
Cambridgeshire VIEW
HAYES, Harriett Wife Married F 26 1855
Crimplesham
Norfolk VIEW
HAYES, Agnes Daughter Single F 1 1880
Sutton Bridge
Lincolnshire VIEW

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RG number:
RG11 Piece:
3208 Folio:
67 Page:
18

Registration District:
Holbeach Sub District:
Long Sutton Enumeration District:
Ecclesiastical Parish:


Civil Parish:
Sutton St Mary Municipal Borough:
Address:
49, Whithington St, Sutton St Mary County:
Lincolnshire



Nicky

This is the 1891 census entry for john Hayes Fisherman......if we are presuming that he married Harriett Clarke this can`t be "your" Harriett as this one is born in Norfolk...

HAYES, John Head Married M 37 1854 Fisherman
Sutton Bridge
Lincolnshire VIEW
HAYES, Harriet Wife Married F 37 1854
Crimplesham
Norfolk VIEW
HAYES, Agnes Daughter F 11 1880
Sutton Bridge
Lincolnshire VIEW
HAYES, Harriet Emma Daughter F 9 1882 Scholar
Sutton Bridge
Lincolnshire VIEW
HAYES, Lily Maud Daughter F 8 1883 Scholar
Sutton Bridge
Lincolnshire VIEW
HAYES, Dinah Daughter F 2 1889
Sutton Bridge
Lincolnshire VIEW

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RG number:
RG12 Piece:
2567 Folio:
101 Page:
30

Registration District:
Holbeach Sub District:
Long Sutton Enumeration District:
8 Ecclesiastical Parish:
Sutton St Mary

Civil Parish:
Sutton St Mary Municipal Borough:
Address:
New Road, Sutton St Mary, Long Sutton County:
Lincolnshire




Nicky

Nicky,

I have gone back over my research notes, (this particular branch of my tree is something I have picked at several times). I think I may have made an error in judgement early on my investigations in that I found the same marriage entry of Robert Hayes & Harriet Clarke that you have brought me back to. At the time I discounted it - I think because the 1887 marriage to John Hayes seemed to make more sense. However, with the benefit of reflection & the acquisition of more experience on my part I think this marriage might relate to "my" Harriet. I have done a little more digging around for Robert Hayes & interestingly I have found an 1881 census entry for a Robert Hayes at Sutton St Mary, shown as married but living as a boarder with another family - he is shown as a fisherman. If they were living apart for a period, during which John William was born from a relationship with William Hull, but then got back together this might go some way to explaining matters. It also occurs to me that a fisherman husband might not be recorded on a census with his family if he was out at sea. This obviously warrants more investigation.

Many thanks for your input.

Julie

You`d hopefully get an address on a birth cert......sometimes it is just the town or village, but hopefully you will get a road name..maybe Roman Road would be helpful..at least then you`d know it was definetly the same person as in later census`s..

There would be a father named if the child wasn`t illigitimate and Harrietts maiden name if Clarke/Hayes wasn`t her name from birth.


Without any certs. for confirmation this is pure speculation.......... think the marriage of Harriett to Robert Hayes may be the most helpful....that will have her fathers name and occupation and then hopefully you can track her back to earlier census`s...



Nicky

What about baptism records, depending on the clerk/vicar as to how much info is taken. In my research I have come across a lot of batisms with the mothers maiden name included as well as parishes for both parents.

Annx

Nicky,

Thanks, the Axses census entry is the one I had picked up as a possible for Harriet, but I can't find any other trace of this name or variants of it .
On your comment about birth certs, I didn't think birth certs from that era gave any info on the child's mother, unless she was unmarried, so I'm not sure what I would get from these?

Julie

The marriage cert. may help unravel the mystery as well...I presume you don`t have it?


Marriages Jun 1875 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Clark Harriett Holbeach 7a 663
Hayes Robert Holbeach 7a 663



Nicky

If you get one of the childrens birth certs you should get more info on mother Harriett...

Possible birth reg for John william.?.

Births Jun 1878 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Clarke John William Holbeach 7a 423



Nicky

1881 for reference...

AXSES, Harriett Wife Head Married F 24 1857 Charwoman
Holbeach
Lincolnshire VIEW
AXSES, John W Son Single M 2 1879
Holbeach
Lincolnshire VIEW
CLARKE, Harriett Daughter Single F 6 1875 Scholar
Holbeach
Lincolnshire VIEW

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RG number:
RG11 Piece:
3211 Folio:
83 Page:
1

Registration District:
Holbeach Sub District:
Holbeach Enumeration District:
Ecclesiastical Parish:


Civil Parish:
Whaplode Municipal Borough:
Address:
Roman Bank, Whaplode County:
Lincolnshire



Nicky

Back then, son-in-law, etc was also used for the relationship we would now call step-son, etc. (as well as the modern relationship of son-in-law, etc).

Thanks to you both for tracking down this census entry which hadn't cropped up on my searches for some reason.

????????????


Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth
Year Occupation Where Born Original
census
image

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

FARMER, Thomas Head M 77 1794 Lincolnshire VIEW
FARMER, Elizabeth Wife F 52 1819 Lincolnshire VIEW
FARMER, Martha H Daughter F 12 1859 Lincolnshire VIEW
FARMER, George H Son M 9 1862 Lincolnshire VIEW
CLARK, Harriett Servant F 14 1857 Lincolnshire VIEW B/P Holbeach
SMITH, William Boarder M 28 1843 Lincolnshire VIEW
GENT, James Boarder M 15 1856 Lincolnshire VIEW

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RG number:
RG10 Piece:
3330 Folio:
52 Page:
1

Registration District:
Holbeach Sub District:
Holbeach Enumeration District:
5 Ecclesiastical Parish:


Civil Parish:
Holbeach Municipal Borough:
Address:
John Codling's Farm House, Holbeach County:
Lincolnshire



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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possible

1871 census
Address John Codlings Farm House
Parish Holbeach
District Holbeach, Holbeach
Administrative County Lincolnshire

Householder 1
Name Thomas Farmer
Age 77
Estimated Year of Birth 1794
Relationship to Head of Household Head
Occupation
Birth Place Lincolnshire
Birth County Lincolnshire

Householder 2
Name Elizabeth Farmer
Age 52
Estimated Year of Birth 1819
Relationship to Head of Household Wife
Occupation
Birth Place Lincolnshire
Birth County Lincolnshire

Householder 3
Name Martha Farmer
Age 12
Estimated Year of Birth 1859
Relationship to Head of Household Daughter
Occupation Juvenile
Birth Place Lincolnshire
Birth County Lincolnshire
Householder 4

Name George Farmer
Age 9
Estimated Year of Birth 1862
Relationship to Head of Household Son
Occupation Juvenile
Birth Place Lincolnshire
Birth County Lincolnshire

Householder 5 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Name Harriett Clark
Age 14
Estimated Year of Birth 1857
Relationship to Head of Household Servant
Occupation Juvenile
Birth Place Lincolnshire
Birth County Lincolnshire

Householder 6
Name William Smith
Age 28
Estimated Year of Birth 1843
Relationship to Head of Household Boarder
Occupation
Birth Place Lincolnshire
Birth County Lincolnshire
Householder 7

Name James Gent
Age 15
Estimated Year of Birth 1856
Relationship to Head of Household Boarder
Occupation Juvenile
Birth Place Lincolnshire
Birth County Lincolnshire

RG10 / 3330


it states on census she was born in holbeach

This my first post seeking help.
I am relatively new to family history research & I am hoping those with more experience out there can help me make sense of the pieces I have located so far & possibly suggest where I go from here in trying to find missing pieces of the puzzle.

My great grandfather John William Clark(e) married Louisa Cunnington in 1900, I have traced their marriage to Holbeach Hurn & have a copy of the marriage certificate. This shows the father of John William as William Hull.

The 1911 census entry at Holbeach Hurn for John W & family lists not only his wife & children but Rose Ellen & Alfred Hayes as brother & sister in law, at 17 &15 they are clearly not in the way we use these terms today. I have traced these 2 to a census entry in 1901 at nearby Whaplode, along with mother Harriet Hayes & older siblings William, Harry, Arthur & Robert & a lodger Robert Hull. Harriet is shown as married but has no husband listed with her & the family. A death regn for a Harriet Hayes in 1902 at Holbeach may explain why the youngest 2 Hayes were living with their older half-brother in 1911.

I have also found an 1891 census entry at essentially the same Whaplode location for Harriet Clarke, along with sons John W, William, Harry & Arthur, their ages all fit with the later census entries, but they are all listed as Clarke. Harriet is again shown as married but has no husband listed with the family. I thought this might be a case of a mother who has re-married and the children from her earlier marriage having taken on the “new” husbands name. However, the marriage regn I found for Holbeach for Harriet Clarke to a John Hayes is in 1887 – before the 1891 census showing Clarke, but, I can find no birth regns for William, Harry or Arthur under Clarke or Clark, but I can find appropriate birth regns for William (1885) & Arthur (1889) Hayes at Holbeach that fit with census ages, Harry is more problematical as his actual given name could be one of several options, but I haven't found anything so far.

Going back to John W's marriage certificate & William Hull, the lodger Robert Hull with Harriet & family in 1901 seems rather too much of a coincidence & led to my tracking a Hull family with brothers William & Robert; on earlier census data Robert & parents Robert & Susan live very close to Harriet (they can be found either on the same census page or a next door pages), although the family moved to Whaplode from the Bourne area. The first time they are listed in Whaplode is the 1871 census, but they appear to have moved to Roman Bank or Road by the 1881 census where they remained. The 1881 census shows a Harriet Clarke 6 yr old daughter of a Harriet, whose name I cannot dicipher, with a 2 yr old son John W (the right age for John William Clark), at what appears to be the same location (using the Hull family as a point of reference) as Harriet Clarke & Harriet Hayes on later census data. There is a note by Harriet snr that she is “living apart from husband”.

I have so far drawn a blank in trying to track Harriet Clarke snr before 1881 (if you accept that the 1881 census entry relates to her). Is it of course unclear whether Clark(e) was her maiden name, but I have drawn a blank on a birth regn around 1856 for a Harriet Clark(e), or marriage of a Harriet Clark(e)

Julie Johnson