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Hi,
If anyone is not gallivanting tonight, I would be grateful if they could take a look at a tree I am working on.
Thos Hill born c1806 in Ashton in Makerfield married Elizabeth Pownall in 1826. Other trees on A* have their children listed as
James 1830
Margaret 1834
Henry 1836
John 1837
Martha 1840
Mary 1843
However
Double-checking what I could on GRO, there are no children named John, Martha or Mary Hill with the MMN Pownall. In fact, I am struggling to find a common MMN for the 3 of them.
John 1837 married Ellen Shepherd and their family is correct.
If anyone can guide me out of this maze, I would be grateful. Thanks. Cx
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Until 1875 there were no penalties for not registering births, and, as I know you will be aware, no registration of any sort before 1st July 1837 - only PR’s up to that date.
I presume A* is Ancestry website?
Are all the children with the parents on censuses?
Does the Ancestry tree offer any documentary proof?
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When did John marry? What info did he give about his father?
EDITED
I see from LanOPC that he said his father was Thomas, a collier, and that a witness to the marriage was a Mary Hill
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Lancs BMD has one birth for Hill with MMN Pownall…………Samuel in 1838 - in Manchester, so not relevant to your enquiry
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In 1851, the census for Standish, Wigan has
Thomas 1806 b Ashton
Elizabeth 1801 b Newton
James 1830 b Newton
Margaret 1834 b Newton
Henry 1836 b Parr
John 1838 b Parr
Matty 1841 b Parr
Mary 1843 b Parr
They appear to be all one family, so you will probably have to accept that their births weren’t registered, which was commonplace
All bar Martha - obviously - are together on 1841 census at Parr Stocks
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Trying to stay awake - you might well have these records
Nothing on the lancsopc site for James and Margaret but the other 4 baptisms show with abode as Parr.
It seems as though only John has Father as a Collier, the rest show as Labourer
Baptism: 11 Oct 1835 St Mary (now St Helen), St Helens, Lancashire
Henry Hill - Son of Thomas Hill & Elizabeth
Abode: Parr
Occupation: Labourer
Baptised By: W. Bawdwen
Register: Baptisms 1833 - 1841 from the Bishop's Transcripts, Page [73], Entry 584
Source: LDS Film 1469036
Baptism: 17 Dec 1837 St Mary (now St Helen), St Helens, Lancashire
John Hill - Son of Thomas Hill & Elizabeth
Abode: Parr
Occupation: Collier <<<<<<<<<<<,,
Baptised By: W. Bawdwen
Register: Baptisms 1833 - 1841 from the Bishop's Transcripts, Page [163], Entry 1302
Source: LDS Film 1469036
Baptism: 19 Apr 1840 St Mary (now St Helen), St Helens, Lancashire
Martha Hill - Daughter of Thomas Hill & Elizabeth
Abode: Parr
Occupation: Labourer
Baptised By: T. Morton
Register: Baptisms 1833 - 1841 from the Bishop's Transcripts, Page [264], Entry 2108
Source: LDS Film 1469036
Baptism: 2 Jun 1843 St Mary (now St Helen), St Helens, Lancashire
Mary Hill - Daughter of Thomas Hill & Elizabeth
Abode: Parr
Occupation: Labourer
Baptised By: J. B. Meredith
Register: Baptisms 1841 - 1845 from the Bishop's Transcripts, Page [78], Entry 622
Source: LDS Film 1469036
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Marriage: 24 Apr 1826 St Elphin, Warrington, Lancashire
Thomas Hill - (X), This Parish
Betty Pownall - (X), This Parish
Witnesses: George Pownall; Sarah Pownall (X)
Married by Banns by Robert Atherton Rawstorne Rector
Register: Marriages 1824 - 1833, Page 130, Entry 389
Source: LDS Film 1562961
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1841 England, Wales & Scotland Census
Parr Stocks, Prescot, Lancashire, england
First name(s) Last name Sex Age Birth year Birth place
Thomas Hill Male 30 1811 Lancashire, England <<<<< Labourer
Elizabeth Hill Female 35 1806 Lancashire, England
James Hill Male 12 1829 Lancashire, England
Margaret Hill Female 9 1832 Lancashire, England
Henry Hill Male 5 1836 Lancashire, England
John Hill Male 3 1838 Lancashire, England
Martha Hill Female 1 1840 Lancashire, England
William Singleton Male 20 1821 Lancashire, England
Catherine Singleton Female 16 1825 Lancashire, England
1851 England, Wales & Scotland Census
Lower Ground, Standish, Wigan, Lancashire, England
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Thomas Hill Head Married Male 45 1806 Coal miner Ashton, Lancashire, England
Elizabeth Hill Wife Married Female 50 1801 - Newton, Lancashire, England
James Hill Son Unmarried Male 21 1830 Coal miner Newton, Lancashire, England
Margaret Hill Daughter Unmarried Female 17 1834 - Newton, Lancashire, England
Henry Hill Son Unmarried Male 15 1836 - Parr, Lancashire, England
John Hill Son - Male 13 1838 - Parr, Lancashire, England
Matty Hill Daughter - Female 10 1841 - Parr, Lancashire, England
Mary Hill Daughter - Female 8 1843 - Parr, Lancashire, England
James Swift Lodger Married Male 28 1823 Coal miner Parr Stocks, Lancashire, England
Catherine Swift Lodger Married Female 27 1824 Miners wife Newton, Lancashire, England
John Swift Lodger - Male 4 1847 - Parr Stocks, Lancashire, England
Elizabeth Swift Lodger - Female 2 1849 - Wigan, Lancashire, England
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could this be Margret's marriage naming Thomas a Collier as Father
Marriage: 24 Jan 1853 All Saints, Wigan, Lancashire
William Davenport - (X), 22, Collier, Bachelor, Douglas Bank
Margaret Hill - (X), 21, Spinster, Douglas Bank
Groom's Father: Thomas Davenport, Deceased
Bride's Father: Thomas Hill, Collier
Witnesses: John Newby; Margaret Newby (X)
Married by Banns by Geo.Huntington Clerk in orders
Register: Marriages 1851 - 1853, Page 250, Entry 500
Source: LDS Film 1885696
and one (or both) of these James !
Marriage: 17 May 1852 All Saints, Wigan, Lancashire
James Hill - (X), 22, Collier, Bachelor, Douglas Bank
Mary Melling - (X), 20, Spinster, Wigan Lane
Groom's Father: Thomas Hill, Collier
Bride's Father: William Melling, Deceased
Witnesses: James France (X); Margaret Hill (X)
Married by Banns by Geo.Huntington Clerk in orders
Register: Marriages 1851 - 1853, Page 95, Entry 190
Source: LDS Film 1885696
Marriage: 3 Apr 1853 All Saints, Wigan, Lancashire
James Hill - (X), 22, Collier, Widower, Chapel Lane
Elizabeth Bradshaw - (X), 20, Spinster, Chapel Lane
Groom's Father: Thomas Hill, Collier
Bride's Father: John Bradshaw, Collier
Witnesses: Joseph Aspey (X); Phoebe Welsh (X)
Married by Banns by Howard St.George Curate
Register: Marriages 1853 - 1854, Page 36, Entry 72
Source: LDS Film 1885697
and John -
Marriage: 21 Nov 1858 St George, Wigan, Lancashire
John Hill - (X), 21 yrs, Collier, Bachelor, Woodhouses
Ellen Shepherd - (X), 19 yrs, Spinster, School Lane
Groom's Father: Thomas Hill, Collier
Bride's Father: John Shepherd, Collier
Witnesses: Richard Wilkinson (X); Mary Hill (X)
Married by Banns by John Clarke, Curate
Register: Marriages 1854 - 1861, Page 144, Entry 288
Source: Original register at Wigan Archives
then Martha -
Marriage: 28 Oct 1860 St Catharine, Wigan, Lancashire
William Rigby - (X), 26, Collier, Bachelor, Broom Street
Martha Hill - (X), 22, Spinster, Broom Street
Groom's Father: James Rigby, Collier
Bride's Father: Thomas Hill, (deceased), Browman
Witnesses: Thomas Pilkington (X); Mary Hill (X)
Married by Banns by Wm. Thos. Whitehead Incumbent
Register: Marriages 1854 - 1863, Page 153, Entry 305
Source: Original register at Wigan Archives
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John with wife Ellen in 1861 - Mother Betty and sister Mary with them
1861 England, Wales & Scotland Census
Manchester Road, Ince, Wigan, Lancashire, England
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
John Hill Head Married Male 22 1839 Coal miner Ince, Lancashire, England
Ellen Hill Wife Married Female 21 1840 - Aspull, Lancashire, England
Charles Hill Son - Male 2 1859 - Wigan, Lancashire, England
Betty Hill Mother Widow Female 62 1799 - Newton, Lancashire, England
Mary Hill Sister Unmarried Female 19 1842 - Ince, Lancashire, England
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Thank you both. Yes, I was using Ancestry and I also use the Lancashire sites.
I will have to go with the fact that the births were not registered - I was just ensuring that I had not missed something obvious.
Thank you again and a Happy New Year to you. Cx
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