Genealogy Chat

This is a repost of a query i have had on here some time, but a little bit of info has come to light, and would appreciate some thoughts on my 'surmising'

First of all, info i have

John Vale b1792 at Buctberry (buttsbury?) Essex
m. Charlotte Bottom Dec 1828
He had two sons Rueben and Elijah
Reuben had a son Harry b 1863
Ruebens wife died 1864, rueben died 1869

Harry appears on the 1871 census as son of John Vale (who was born 1817 in either Stanford-le-Hope or Stifford)
On the 1881 census Harry is shown as nephew

Now John (1792) has an occupation as a labourer in a gasworks(1841 census only)
John (1817) is a manager of a Gasworks although the addresses of each are Haggerston and Wimbledon respectively

I have surmised ( better than assumed!) that John (1817) is a son of John (1792) on three clues
1) born in the same area
2) both involved in the gas industry
3) John (1817) takes are of Harry after both parents die.
4) guessing Johns wife died after 1817 but when?

Harry cannot be traced on the 1891 census, his address on the Wedd Cert is Swan Terrace (London)

On another search site concerning Charlotte Bottom the wedding notes have been found where John (1792) is shown as widower! so 4) above seems to have legs

What i need is reasonable proof, better still, details of Johns first marriage, and more info on John(1817) birth
On the Mormon site i have four possible marriages, but there i stop

Two questions
1) Am i on the right track?
2) Any ideas where i might find the information to confirm this?

I have paid a visit to the ERO but could only find a marriage for a Peter Vale in 1788 (hopefully Johns father)

The line for Charloote is more fruitful as she is a Huguenot and the other tree has got back to 1680, so its joining the Huguenot society for more info on her

Any thoughts appreciated

Thanks
Ron


1) Am I on the right track re the relationship between the Johns?

On the 1891 marriage certificate, Henry/Harry gives his father's name as Joseph!

Maybe this is just his mistake.

Can you give us the link to your other thread so we don't spend time repeating the information you already have please.

http://seax.essexcc.gov.uk/EssexAncestors.aspx

(Essex online facility above, subscription needed)

Chris :)

(edits, another Vale in Buttsbury)

MISCELLANEOUS ESSEX DOCUMENTS
Level: Series Deeds
Level: Sub-Series Deeds relating to Buttsbury
Level: Item Lease
Reference Code: D/DC 27/667
Dates of Creation: 1 October 1787
Title: Lease
Scope and Content: Lease for 21 years, at annual rent of £10
Philadelphia Vanderzee, widow, to Richard Whinfield, carpenter, both of Billericay
A cottage and land (8acres), late in occupation of James Vale, at Perry Street; in Buttsbury.
Date From: 1787
Date To: 1787

Name: Harry Reuben Vale
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 14 Feb 1864 (Born 29 Aug. 1863)
Father's Name: Reuben Vale (Clerk)
Mother's name: Rebecca Vale
Parish or Poor Law Union: Islington St Mary
Borough: Islington
Register Type: Parish Registers
(address, Frederick Street)

Name: Harriet Charlotte Vale
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 20 May 1855 (Born 19 March? 1855)
Father's Name: Reuben Vale
Mother's name: Rebecca Vale
Parish or Poor Law Union: Islington St Mary
Borough: Islington
Register Type: Parish Registers

Name: Frances Ann Vale
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 27 Jul 1856 (Born 6th May 1856)
Father's Name: Reuben Vale
Mother's name: Rebecca Vale
Parish or Poor Law Union: Islington St Mary
Borough: Islington
Register Type: Parish Registers

Name: Catherine Mary Vale
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 4 May 1862 (Born 25th Feb. 1862)
Father's Name: Reuben Vale
Mother's name: Rebecca Vale
Parish or Poor Law Union: Islington St Mary
Borough: Islington
Register Type: Parish Registers

England & Wales, National Probate Calendar (Index of Wills and Administrations), 1858-1966
about Reuben Vale
Name: Reuben Vale
Probate Date: 6 Oct 1869
Death Date: 23 Jul 1869
Death Place: Middlesex, England
Registry: Principal Registry

(late of 17 Frederick Street, Caledonian Road. Letters of Administration granted at the Principal Registry to Rebecca Vale, of 17, Frederick Street aforesaid Widow the relict of the said Deceased she having been first sworn)

Chris :)

Name: Reuben Vale
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 18 Sep 1831 (Born 23rd Aug. 1831)
Father's Name: John Vale (Labourer)
Mother's name: Charlotte Vale
Parish or Poor Law Union: Shoreditch St Leonard
Borough: Hackney
Register Type: Parish Registers

Name: Reuben Vale (Law Stationer)
Age: Full Age
Spouse Name: Rebecca Bull
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 16 Apr 1854
Parish: Islington St Mary
Borough: Islington
Father Name: John Vale (Foreman Gasworks)
Spouse Father Name: Charles Bull
Register Type: Parish Register

1861
VALE, Ruben Head Married M 29 1832 Extra Clerk Civil Service
Middlesex
VALE, Rebecca Wife Married F 28 1833 Extra Clerk Civil Service Wife
Middlesex
VALE, H C Daughter Unmarried F 6 1855 Scholar
Middlesex
VALE, F Ann Daughter Unmarried F 4 1857 Scholar
Middlesex
VALE, Emma Susan Daughter Unmarried F 2 1859
Middlesex
Piece: 130
Folio: 5
Page: 7
Registration District: Islington
Civil Parish: St Mary Islington
Municipal Borough:
Address: 17, Frederick Street, St Mary Islington
County: London

1871
VALE, John Head M 54 1817 Essex (Stifford, Manager of Gasworks)
VALE, Isbella Wife F 53 1818 Middlesex
VALE, Fanny Daughter F 12 1859 Surrey
VALE, James Son M 18 1853 Surrey
VALE, Harry Son M 8 1863 Middlesex
Piece: 857
Folio: 78
Page: 2
Registration District: Kingston
Civil Parish: St Mary Wimbledon
Municipal Borough:
Address: Haydon's Lane Gas Works, St Mary Wimbledon
County: Surrey

1881
VALE, John Head Married M 64 1817 Manager Of Gasworks
Essex
VALE, Isabell Wife Married F 63 1818
Middlesex
VALE, Harry Nephew Single M 16 1865 Gas Fitter
Middlesex
Piece: 831
Folio: 89
Page: 18
Registration District: Kingston
Civil Parish: Wimbledon
Municipal Borough:
Address: Gaswork Cottage, Haydens Road, Wimbledon
County: Surrey

Name: Henry Reuben Vale (Hairdresser) (Harry on image?)
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1863
Age: 28
Spouse Name: Mary Hills
Spouse Age: 19
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 17 Dec 1891
Parish: Southwark St Mary Magdalene
Borough: Southwark
Father Name: Joseph Vale (Deceased)
Spouse Father Name: Charles Hills
Register Type: Parish Register
(address, Swan Place)

John and Charlotte were still around in 1851

Name: Charlotte Vale
Age: 62
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1789
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: John Vale
Gender: F (Female)
Where born: St Leonards; Shoreditch

Registration district: Shoreditch
Sub-registration district: Haggerstone West

Household schedule number: 138
Piece: 1537
Folio: 154
Page Number: 29
Household Members: Name Age
John Vale
59
Charlotte Vale
62
Reuben Vale
19

Or, when you say you presume John's wife died after 1817, are you talking about his first wife? Possible mother of John born 1817? Yes, of course you are.

I think your theory of son John (1817) being born from John (1792)'s earlier marriage is certainly plausible (and likely).

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~abneypark/abneyy.html

(some Burials on above)

Chris :)

edits (link to other 'Thread')

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/trying_to_find/thread/1174970


1841 (poor image)
CALE, John M 45 1796
CALE, Charlotte F 50 1791 Middlesex
CALE, Elijah M 11 1830 Middlesex
CALE, Ruben M 9 1832 Middlesex
Piece: 704
Book/Folio: 1/15
Page: 18
Registration District: Shoreditch
Civil Parish: St Leonard Shoreditch
Municipal Borough: Tower Hamlets
Address: Brunswick Street Haggerstone Park, St Leonard Shoreditch, Tower Hamlets
County: Middlesex

Name: Charlotte Bottom (Spinster)
Spouse Name: John Vale (Widower)
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 25 Dec 1828
Parish: Bethnal Green St Matthew
Borough: Tower Hamlets
Register Type: Parish Register

Chris,

I was loathe to repost this as another question i put on here, got a lot of replies, but didnt answer it!. Most people just churned out the stuff i already had, grateful for their time ,but if they had read it carefully, it could have saved them some time.

you certainly have been doing some digging and reading!!!

Catherine Mary is a new addition to me. would i be right in saying that as she is not on a census, she died prior to 1871?

And a big Yes to Johns first wife.
She is the missing link at the moment. I am ok with the records back to both johns but its the birth details of John b 1817 that would really clich it

My notes show 4 possibles

Married Charlotte Bottom in 1828. However this MAY be a second Marriage

possible first marriage
Lucy Dewe St James Colchester 2 may 1809
Martha Russell St George southwark 23 april 1810
Jane Washington at Navestock Essex 6 june 1810
Mary Stewart St Luke Finsbury 29 Jan 1814
all above obtained from LDS

The Navestock union sems the best , given to locality to John (1817) birth


but if the birth/baptism details of John (1817) and the marriage/death details of Johns (1792)
wife haven't survived that seems top be the dead end

May i ask whre you got the details of Catherine Marys details, Ruebens' will, and birth cert info from? . The name difference puzzled me but he is my g-grandfather, as his widow married into the Collett name, and i have met several of the offspring in my earlier years. iAlthough i have been on this for 5 years (on and off) i expect there are still sites i dont know about to get nuggets of information like this.

If only the BMD certs didnt cost so much i could get the full set of them all!

My grandad told me we were descended from some French stock and the name was Duvall but it changed on arrival in UK. With the recently discovered Huguenot connection it seems he was half right. Should be some fun tracing that line

Thanks for the update.

They come from Ancestry Ron, (1828 Marriage does say Widower)

Chris :)

edits (although you have a lot of the above, by posting the info. it helps us folks on here get a clearer picture sometimes, lol, says me, who ain't no expert!)

(this one below from Find My Past)

Year:1810
Supplied Surname:WASHINGTON
Surname:WASHINGTON
Full First name:Jane
Supplied First Name:Jane
Spouse Surname:VALE
Spouse Full First name:John
Spouse First Name:Jn
Place:NAVESTOCK
County:Essex
Record source:Boyd's Marriage Index 1538-1840

Name: Mary Stewart (Spinster)
Spouse Name: John Vaile (Widower)
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 29 Jan 1815
Parish: Finsbury St Luke
Borough: Islington
Register Type: Parish Register

Name: Martha Russell (Spinster)
Spouse Name: John Vale (Bachelor)
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 23 Apr 1810
Parish: St George the Martyr
Borough: Southwark
Register Type: Parish Register


Name: Elijah Vale
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 6 Dec 1829 (Born 8 Nov.1829)
Father's Name: John Vale (Labourer)
Mother's name: Charlotte Vale
Parish or Poor Law Union: Shoreditch St Leonard
Borough: Hackney
Register Type: Parish Registers
(address, Glos'ter Street)

Chris,

Thanks for the insight into the protocol on the site.Like someone with an orthpedic shoe, i stand corrected and offer my belated apolgies for doubting all those in the past. Mght sound a bit gushing and OTT but it is heartfelt

(lol, no worries Ron, hope something comes to light soon, regarding John 1817)

Chris :)

Just for your records, Catherine was still alive in 1884

Name: Catherine Vale
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1863
Age: 21
Spouse Name: William Henry Maskelyne
Spouse Age: 22
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 24 Aug 1884
Parish: Barnsbury St Andrew
Borough: Islington
Father Name: Reuben Vale
Spouse Father Name: William Maskelyne
Register Type: Parish Register

This looks like John Vale (b.1817)'s marriage certificate. It doesn't actually prove anything, but it fits nicely with the theory.

Name: John Vale
Age: Full Age
Spouse Name: Isabella Scutchings
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 8 Jul 1839
Parish: Stepney St Dunstan and All Saints
Borough: Tower Hamlets
Father Name: John Vale - labourer
Register Type: Parish Register

Mm, now I'm not too sure about this marriage, as it doesn't look as though your John and Isabella had children until 1845.

Name: MASKELYNE, Chatherine M
Registration district: [?] Croydon
County: Surrey
Year of registration: 1956
Quarter of registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
Age at death:94
Volume no: 5G
Page no: 2

Name: MASKELYNE, William H
Registration district: [?] Croydon
County: Surrey
Year of registration: 1931
Quarter of registration: Apr-May-Jun
Age at death:68
Volume no: 2A
Page no: 441

(good find Christina, looks like Catherine lived to a good age!)

Chris :)

1911
MASKELYNE, William Henry Head Married M 48 1863 Compositor Marlborough Wilts
MASKELYNE, Kate Wife Married 27 years F 48 1863 London Islington
MASKELYNE, Florence Daughter Single F 19 1892 Bookfolder Walthamstow Essex
MASKELYNE, Henry John Son M 15 1896 Apprentice Compositor Walthamstow Essex
RG number: RG14
Piece: 3371
Reference: RG14PN3371 RG78PN127 RD39 SD4 ED4 SN237
Registration District: Croydon
Sub District: North Croydon
Enumeration District: 4
Parish: Croydon
Address: 90 Estcourt Road
County: Surrey
(5 children born, 4 living, 1 died)

Name: Isabella Vale
Age: 23
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1828
Relation: Visitor
Gender: F (Female)
Where born: East Dsanam, Norfolk, England

Civil parish: Hackney
Ecclesiastical parish: West Hackney
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Household Members: Name Age
John Vale
34
Isabel Vale
33
William Vale
7
Thomas Vale
5
Alfred Vale
9 Mo
Isabella Vale visitor - unmarried
23

This is John and Isabella in 1851. Who do you suppose Isabella the visitor is?

Possibly a sister, born in Norfolk? She's unmarried so not sister-in-law.

Thanks for the update on Catherine,.Married a Maskelyne. Hmmm
Now there is an interesting name and unusual, not many to the pound methinks!
There was a Maskelyne who was very knowledgable about railways,and their modelling in the early 1900's, and his father? was the Maskelyne who did a lot of the deception work in WW2
Just as an aside another couple of my forebears worked on the Railway and another was a cab driver
I build live steam locos and have been nuts on railways since knee high to a sparrow, and also do chauffeuring ( Wedding hire if any one is interested!!) Berks Buck, Surrey and West London so as they say ( good deals for Genes Members

It must be in the genes

Lol Ron, don't think I need wedding hire thanks, probably my next stop will be a hearse!!.

(take a look at William Henry Maskelyne on below link, found on a google search)


http://www.flickr.com/photos/alaricpether/4005437881/

Not sure who the Isabella Vale 1851 is, down as Annuitant...

Chris :)

Chris
A quick update.
visited Abney Park cemetery Sat and found Ruebens grave. His son John Charles Vale was also buried there with him ,the poor mite only lasted 32months. No Headstone as far as we could see but it may have been knocked down or moved slightly. Expect to go back when the ground isnt so muddy

Ron

Well done on that Ron, good find.

Chris :)