Genealogy Chat

Thank you again. I feel that I am getting somewhere. It is all of great interest.

Mistranscribed:

FMPAST 1861
First name(s) William
Last name Parten
Relationship Head
Marital status Married
Gender Male
Age 37
Birth year 1824
Occupation Inn Keeper
Birth town Cheltenham
-
House name Beehive Inn Montpelier Villas
Street Union Street
Parish Cheltenham
City or borough Cheltenham
Town Cheltenham
Piece number 1803
Folio number 105
Page number 23
Family member last name TAYLOR, YONG, PARTEN
Family member first name(s) GEORGE, SARAH, THOMAS, WILLIAM, HARRIET


Maureen

Excellent. It makes sense because James Carter owned, or owned shares in, the Beehive, No 4 and another house in a nearby road. His son William Carter born c 1824 was landlord of the Beehive in 1871. Was William also there in 1861 (FMP is a complete blank on this)?

In 1861 it's James Carter (he of the Beehive from 1851):
1861 England Census about James Carter
Name: James Carter
Age: 68
Estimated birth year: 1793
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Sarah Carter
Gender: Male
Where born: Ashton Under Lyme, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Cheltenham
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary
Town: Cheltenham
County/Island: Gloucestershire
Country: England
Sub-registration district: Cheltenham
ED, institution, or vessel: 41
Piece: 1803
Folio: 105
Page Number: 23

James Carter 68
Sarah Carter 70
Sarah Apperly 64
Sarah A Levin 18

Source Citation: Class: RG 9; Piece: 1803; Folio: 105; Page: 23

Yes, thank you. The Beehive listing info states that it was 3 units originally (possibly an inn and 2 dwellings) with coach house, now inn with garages to rear. I'll look into trade directories as you suggest.

I can't get anything for no. 4 in the 1861 census, though. The address doesn't work and I have tried Harris from 1851.

In the 1851 census the Beehive Inn is recorded before number 4 Montpellier Villas where there is a George and Martha Harris recorded.

It looks to me as if the Beehive Inn was probably always at numbers 1 - 3.

Could you perhaps try trade directories from the time to see if they give an address?

Kath. x

Thank you again. Using the info provided on this thread I have spent some time on the census material and have concluded only that it is pretty inconclusive. One problem is where does the "Hive" or Beehive pub end and where does the rest of Montpellier Villas begin? It all hinges on how much of present-day numbers 1, 2 and 3 (the present-day Beehive pub) were incorporated into the pub in 1841, or whether nos 2 and 3 were still separate dwellings. Following on from the Beehive, if it incorporated nos 1, 2, and 3, it seems that the most likely tenants for no 4 are the Balcombs and the next household, the Davises. But this is only conjecture, not hard evidence.
Thank you again.

And this one MIGHT be no14:

1841 England Census about Robert Balding (Bolding)
Name: Robert Balding
Age: 24
Estimated birth year: abt 1817
Gender: Male
Civil Parish: Cheltenham
Hundred: Cheltenham
County/Island: Gloucestershire
Country: England

The only "address" at Montpellier Villas might be :

1841 England Census about George Harcourt
Name: George Harcourt
Age: 44
Estimated birth year: abt 1797
Gender: Male
Civil Parish: Cheltenham
Hundred: Cheltenham


According to a few news articles he lived at number 29.

And that doesn't help a bit!!!!!

Maureen

The 1841 census is confusing. It's not just the lack of numbers; the houses don't seem to be listed in order.

William Balcomb & family mentioned above by Empey, are on page 13 of the group of 18 pages on Ancestry. But if you go back to page 10, there are more families listed as being in Montpellier Villas.

Thomas Cheshire's address at "over the stables" is part of the listing for Robert Turner, publican, at the bottom of the previous page (12), whose address might be "Hive Inn" (followed by "Ditto").

The Beehive is at 1-3 Montpellier Villas nowadays (next door to No.4), and its website says :

"The Beehive was designed by the architect of the Pittville Pump Room, John Forbes, the oldest part of the building dates from 1822 and was recorded as The Beehive in the 1850s census. Wool auctions are reputed to have been held in the rear upper assembly room during the 19th Century and this room was apparently used for meetings of the Freemasons during the 20th Century. Today that room is known as "The Beehive Supper Room".

It ought to be either at the end or the start of the Montpellier Villas households, if the houses were listed in order - and it's not.
So there's no way of telling which house William Balcomb was in, nor, therefore, which family might be in No. 4..

Thank you. This is helpful.

There are no numbers given for Montpellier Villas but there are four families given as follows:-

William Balcomb and family
Phillip Davis and family
Mary Greensall
Charles (Hewitt?) and family

The houses are divided by a double line at the left hand side. If there is a single line after a family then the next family is in the same house but a separate household.

Kath. x

Problem is back in the early 1800's streets were not numbered so you might not find what you are looking for.

I do not know who lived here in 1841. The occupants of Montpellier Villas are listed but there are no house numbers. Each household seems to be defined by a mark. I have tried counting these but I need someone with more expertise than I to look at the info and tell me what they think.

I used FMP, which is not helpful. Does Ancestry give more or better info?

The house was built in 1824 by architect John Forbes. This is documented in an article by Steven Blake, historian and former manager of Cheltenham Art Gallery and Museum, "The Unfortunate Mr Forbes". I have little information about the early occupiers but, according to the house deeds, in 1845 it was bought by John Pruen, who owned several properties nearby. He does not appear to have lived in the house.

Who are you expecting to be there?

Do you have access to Ancestry or FMP ?

FMP shows Montpellier Villas but no house numbers

Thomas Cheshire b1818 lived apparently "Over the Stables" so you could find him and then check the images.

Who are you looking for ? What document do you have with that address on and when dated ?

Please can anyone tell me who lived at No 4 Montpellier Villas in 1841?