Genealogy Chat

Hi

I was wondering if anyone can help. My Great Grandfather Alec Allen, bn 1902, Paston, Norfolk seems to be the colourful character in my family but he seems to have vanished one day in the 40's on his bike and I can't find him after this. I have his birth details and 1911 census but on his wedding certificate in 1919 he changes his age to be 4 years older (probably as my Great grandmother was a fair bit older and it was her second marriage!). I can also find a prison record for Norwich Prison for several robberies which looks to be him though I'm no longer a member of Genes and can't find this on any other site if someone can confirm this? He appears in the Kelly's directories for the 40's but at some point he got on his bike to North Walsham by train and was never seen again except once by his daughter when he arranged to meet her in a tea room aged 16 out of the blue. I really want to find his death record or anything else as the family has no details at all and we just don't know what happened to him.

Thanks!

Anne-Marie

Birth details but not the cert ?

You could have searched the deaths on Ancestry using his date of birth

Alec Allen
REGISTRATION YEAR: 1902
REGISTRATION QUARTER: Jan-Feb-Mar
REGISTRATION DISTRICT: Smallburgh
INFERRED COUNTY: Norfolk
VOLUME: 4b
PAGE: 59

Do you have his exact DOB please?

1911 from Ancestry, as Alex

NAME: Alex Allen
AGE IN 1911: 9
ESTIMATED BIRTH YEAR: abt 1902
RELATION TO HEAD: Son
GENDER: Male
BIRTH PLACE: Paston, Norfolk
CIVIL PARISH: Paston
COUNTY/ISLAND: Norfolk
COUNTRY: England
STREET ADDRESS: Heath Farm, Paston, North Walsham
REGISTRATION DISTRICT: Smallburgh
REGISTRATION DISTRICT NUMBER: 221
SUB-REGISTRATION DISTRICT: North Walsham
ED, INSTITUTION, OR VESSEL: 6
HOUSEHOLD SCHEDULE NUMBER: 53
PIECE: 11156
HOUSEHOLD MEMBERS:
NAME AGE
Samuel Allen 47
Ellen Allen 43
Thomas Allen 20
Rachel Allen 17
Amelia Allen 14
Nellie Allen 13
Samuel Allen 15
Alex Allen 9 <<<<<<<
Dorothy Allen 7
Faith Allen 6
David Allen 2

Reg in the first quarter of the year he could have been born late 1901

You need his actual birth date from the cert to try and find his death

Could you say who he married please as I can't see one for 1919?

From FMP
Home Office: Calendar of prisons Transcription

First name(s) Alec
Last name Allen
Age 28
Occupation Gardener
Birth year 1900
Year 1928
Session commencing day 18
Session commencing month Oct
Place Norfolk
Court Shire Hall
Victim's first name(s)/alias Arthur Fredirick
Victim's last name Marsham
Victim 2 first name(s)/alias Philip
Victim 2 last name Girling
Victim 3 first name(s)/alias Henry
Victim 3 last name/alias Hardy
Source A Calendar Of Prisoners Tried At The Assizes
Series HO140
Piece number 410
Folio number -
Page number 2
Record set Crime, Prisons & Punishment
Category Institutions & organisations
Record collection Prison registers
Collections from Great Britain

Not seeing a 1919 marriage would this be him ?

First name(s) ALEC
Last name ALLEN
Marriage quarter 4
Marriage year 1924
Registration month -
MarriageFinder™ ALEC ALLEN married
ELLEN M WALTON
Spouse's last name WALTON
District NORWICH
District number -
County Norfolk
Country England
Volume 4B
Page 450
Record set England & Wales marriages 1837-2008
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Record collection Marriages & divorces
Collections from Great Britain
© brightsolid online publishing ltd

Thank you so much. My apologies but he married in 1924 to Ellen Walton not 1919 as I said. That is correct. I have just ordered his birth certificate to check name and actual DOB so I don't have that yet. I have his wedding cert from 1924 where his age is listed as 26, lives at Heath Farm, Paston, North Walsham is a bachelor and a gardener. He has a terrible reputation in our family but I really want to know what happened, I can't find a death that is close for him. How is it possible to lie about your age on a marriage cert anyway?!

Well over 21 you didn't need parental permission to marry so you could say any age . Lots told porkies on certs to cover up things like making up a dads name to cover illgitimancy

Sometimes the person would say age 21.when they weren't so as not to need parental consent to marry

You just had to sign to say the info given was correct as far as you knew!!!

and you can't actually trust most of the information on a death certificate either!!!


The only information that is bound to be the truth is ....................

date of death
place of death
cause of death
name of doctor (or coroner if there was an inquest)

Name, address and relationship of informant ................... may or may not be accurate


ALL other information is hearsay only .............. ie, that which was made known to the informant



so birth date may be wrong

age may be wrong

name may be wrong

marital status may be wrong



etc etc etc

one Public Family Tree on ancestry has this ........................


Death 1966 in Southampton

Occupation:- General Labourer






You say the last known contact was a meeting with a daughter when she was 16 ........... what year was that?



looking at the births of his daughters on freebmd ................. that meeting could have been any time from 1941 to 1949, depending on which daughter he met.

I know a lot of the information is a guide but I have been surprised by how easy it was to amend things slightly! ! My gt grandmother Ellen lied throughout her life about her age jt seems! It was Queenie C Allen who met him so likely around 1946, though memories may be wrong! I found the southampton Alec but discounted him after finding a birth matching him elsewhere. I tried to look at the Scottish records but found nothing and same for passenger lists. He could have course changed any of his details but I'm stumped as to what happened to him. I was assuming if the criminal record was his that he would have reoffended or possibly married again.

Well the occupation on that criminal record matches what you know about him ie he was a gardener :-)

I now have the birth certificate and Alec Allen was born on the 15th January 1902 to Samuel Alexander Allen and Ellen Allen (nee Paul). I still cannot see a death for him though, I'm not prepared to give up as there must be something I am missing! If anyone could help with anything I am not checking or doing properly I would be really grateful!

There is this death...

Same date of birth, can't see an obvious matching birth in England and Wales


Name:
Alec Andrew

Birth Date15 Jan 1902
Date of Registration:Sep 1978
Age at Death:76
Registration district:Bradford
Inferred County:West Yorkshire
Volume:4
Page:0499


Andy

Marriages Dec 1889 (>99%)
------------------------------------------------
Allen Samuel Smallburgh 4b 126
PAUL Ellen Smallburgh 4b 126

(Parents)

Chris :)

Thank you for this, the parents are correct but I'm not sure how to prove or disprove that Alec Andrew is in fact Alec Allen. Would the death cert prove this? I don't have anything to link him with that part of the country or anything to suggest he changed his name. Though he has clearly changed his year of birth in several situations so I'm sure it is possible.

There's no birth for an Alec Andrew on freebmd for that birth year

Worth taking a quick look on Scotlands People just in case