Genealogy Chat

You may think this a daft question but here goes - can anyone tell me if in 1907 a widow remarried she would have had to give evidence of death of previous spouse by law - this marriage took place in a Register Office. I cannot seem to get a definite answer to this given the applicable time of the event. I know you have to do this these days but any information doesn't seem to be available on googling and am running out of ideas! Have somewhat of a mysterious plot going on in a family I am researching and if it is the case that evidence had to be shown, then I would definitely know that the husband had died and when approximately. This then would discount a couple of scenarios I have in my mind and help me go forward - thanks in anticipation - Ann

From the scenarios other people have mentioned, its unlikely. All the Registrar would want would be a declaration that she was widowed.

Thank you so much for your reply - I rather think you are correct and that is what I have been thinking! I can only find reference to present day practice and what is required. My widow had already been deserted by him once before at least and she and her children ended up in the workhouse but they must, later, have got back together again as I found them all together on the 1901 census. She 'remarries' in 1907 stating she is a widow, and on her daughter's marriage certificate in 1917 her father is stated as deceased so I was trying to find out for sure because I cannot find a death record for him. I'm beginning to think he had done another 'bunk' and she perhaps told her daughter he was dead - unfortunately we shall never know for sure!

Would you like to give some names, rough birth year and locations and see if anyone else can find a death for him.?
Have you looked for him in the deaths using any of his given names?

I don't think she would have had to have shown evidence, judging by the number of times GR folk have mentioned bigamous marriages.

Were they definitely married in the first place? If not, then she was free to marry in 1907.
If there were children, she might have preferred to call herself a widow, to 'save face'.

Hi Gwyn - thanks for your input - yes I have used any of his given names, full, with initials, partial names and initials and his given family pet name! I have so much information about him that has been verified with certificate and records etc. but I just can't find a definite birth and death for him. However any help would be appreciated so his name was Henry Dean but called Harry by his wife (my husbands grandmother) and his family: born 1870 St. Leonard's Shoreditch, Haggerston, Middlesex. His father's name was Alonzo Edward Dean, mother Eliza Ann Pailthorpe. I have researched this family thoroughly on three major family history sites that I subscribe to.

She may well have committed bigamy as they were definitely married, I have the certificate - 1898 - Hackney Register Office - her name was Amy Stone, from Bucks - he was named as Harry Dean - all information bears out to what we as a family already know so this is definitely them. I've delved into extended families as well and all info points to absolute certainty. They had four children, two of which died in infancy - Henry Stanley died at one of their home addresses and Violet (named Lilian Violet) died in the Hackney Union Infirmary. The oldest girl, Dorothy, who seems to have always been with Amy apart from some time spent in the workhouse stayed with her and was present at Amy's death in 1962 - I have all birth and death certificates including my husbands Grandma (Victoria Eleanor) who was born in the Workhouse. She had been transcribed as Victoria Helen and in some cases as Helena but she later in life preferred her name to be Helen Victoria known as 'Nell' to her family. She was 'deserted' around 1904 and 'adopted' by the guardians of the Hackney workhouse and sent to Trowbridge, Wiltshire Boarding out Committee (which is where we all live to this day) - she was then a boarder with a family in Mortimer Street, next door neighbours were very kind to her and she always mentioned this. This is where I found her after many years of searching for her because she had never known her birth family- this was thanks to the 1911 census. She wanted to go to Canada to visit with her son and family early in the 1970's and her and Grampy had to go to the Home Office to get her a passport because she had no means of identification whatsoever. She was issued with a passport and given her birth date - she knew she had links with Bethnal Green and the fact that her father was a tram conductor - we don't know if that info came from the Home Office or it was something that was let slip over preceding years. She never knew her parents names only that her surname was Dean. She always claimed she never knew her birthday but 'chose' 22 January 1901 - this turned out to be valid which surprised her daughter very much. Her father is the one that now seems to be our mystery man!

What about this death

First name(s) HARRY
Last name DEAN
Gender Male
Birth day -
Birth month -
Birth year 1870
Age 37
Death quarter 2
Death year 1907
District WYCOMBE
County Buckinghamshire
Volume 3A
Page 453
Country England

Just for our reference - I know you'll have this yourself:


Harry Dean
England and Wales Census, 1881
Name:
Harry Dean
Age (Original):
11
Gender:
Male
Birth Year:
1870
Birthplace:
Shoreditch, Middlesex, England
Relationship to Head of Household:
Son
Marital Status:
Single
Address:
127 Brunswick St
Event Place:
Shoreditch, Middlesex, England
Record Type:
Household
Affiliate Publication Number:
RG11
Piece/Folio:
404 / 35
Page Number:
2
Household Role Gender Age Birthplace
Elonza Dean Head M 51 Shoreditch, Middlesex, England
Alice Dean Daughter F 19 Shoreditch, Middlesex, England
Edward Dean Son M 17 Shoreditch, Middlesex, England
William Alonza Dean Son M 15 Shoreditch, Middlesex, England
Lavinia Thirza Dean Daughter F 13 Shoreditch, Middlesex, England
Harry Dean Son M 11 Shoreditch, Middlesex, England
GS Film number: 1341087

And again, just for helpers' reference:

Harry Dean

in the 1901 England Census

Name: Harry Dean
Age: 31
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1870
Relation to Head: Head
Gender: Male
Spouse: Amy Dean
Birth Place: Shoreditch, London, England
Civil Parish: St Marylebone
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary
County/Island: London
Country: England
Registration district: St Marylebone
Sub-registration district: St Mary
ED, institution, or vessel: 13
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 111
Folio: 151
Page Number: 25
Household schedule number: 291
Household Members:
Name Age
Harry Dean 31
Amy Dean 24
Dorothy Dean 4
Helena Dean 2

Hi Shirley - I had taken this one into account in the fact that his wife came from Bucks but having researched into this family so much, my gut feeling tells me they didn't stray from London and go back to her family or area - I don't feel that he would have been welcome in the circumstances. Also she remarried in December 1907 in St. Marylebone and can't see why she would return to London as a widow to face yet another uncertain future in the metropolis, and she would have remarried in a very short time but one never knows considering the position she was in. However I appreciate your input and will certainly bear this one in mind if all else fails - thanks!

Hi Argyll - yes have them and those are the ones! Thanks anyway!

Well there used to be a story/myth that if someone disappeared and they not heard of/ from for 7 years then they are presumed dead so you could remarry

maybe the fact she did remarry in 1907 she thought he was dead

If you read the Bigamy law, it doesn't even require that the "widow"'s hubby be dead, so is the marr bigamous?

Sect 57 Bigamy ... Provided, that nothing in this section contained shall extend ... to any person marrying a second time whose husband or wife shall have been continually absent from such person for the space of seven years then last past, and shall not have been known by such person to be living within that time...
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/1861?title=The%20Offences%20against%20the%20Person%20Act%20

Re your initial post re evidence of death: "I know you have to do this these days"
Well, if she marries as a widow, there's at least been a verbal statement to this effect.
Maybe, today, registrars ask for a d.cert before issuing a licence, but it can't be in the initial legislation.
If a widow walked in the first day of civil registration, assuming there'd been a decent period of mourning (i.e., 24h or more), then there'ld be no authority that could issue a d.cert.
In the early 1900s, there were places Harry could have gone to (to start a better life for his family) that didn't issue d.certs - to cite a couple that spring immediately to mind:

Civil registration of deaths in Nova Scotia began in 1864, continued to 1877, then lapsed until 1908, when the province resumed record-keeping.
https://www.novascotiagenealogy.com/Deaths.aspx

On January 1, 1906, the newly established Pennsylvania Department of Health officially began to issue birth and death certificates. Prior to 1906, Pennsylvania births and deaths were recorded only sporadically by the counties and some cities such as Philadelphia and Pittsburgh.
http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt/community/genealogy/3183/vital_statistics/387291

Every year there are dozens of d.certs like this:

Deaths Jun 1905 (>99%)
Unknown Male 25 Stepney 1c 223

and a more recent one:

Deaths Jun 1961 (>99%)
UNKNOWN Male 28 Stepney 5d 575

Today, there must be many localities globally from where one can't get d.certs, so there really can't be a legal REQUIREMENT for a d.cert.

I remember helping someone on here years ago ..............

couple married in a church in London, had several children all baptised in that church

they separated, found living in nearby streets on the next census

Next census, both had new partners and more children ...... all the children baptised in that same church

I didn't look for a marriage (marriages), left that up to the person I was helping


but the vicar had to have known that the marriage had split up and that each was living with someone else, and having more children.

There are plenty of examples of marriages breaking up, and one or both partners moving to another town, then getting married ............ and describing themselves either as single or widow(ed) when the other is still alive


In short ................ no, they did not have to produce documentary evidence of divorce or death back in the day

Someone's word was good enough

Many thanks everyone for your info and help - has highlighted some possible things that I hadn't thought of and will bear in mind on resuming my search. As I said he was entered as 'deceased' on their eldest daughter's marriage certificate in 1917 but as has been pointed out there could be any number of reasons for that fact. I have found a Harry Dean Short Attestation form filled out in 1915 for 1916 for those men who were conscripted following the raising of the age of men to go to war when they were running short of 'cannon fodder' - all the information on that points to him except for the age, but then again he could have been lying or didn't want to be found. It seems a shame not to be able to find closure on him as I have been able to do with his wife Amy, his four children and indeed his parents and siblings but maybe something will come along in the future as new records unfold - in the meantime if anyone should find anything that would be great - thanks again Ann

According to the poor law records on Ancestry, when Harry deserted Amy in 1900, he was believed to be in Mardlin, Northampton- could he have returned to Northampton?

The record also states that he was a bus conductor (previously tram conductor) but that when he enlisted in the army in 1885 his trade was a boot maker- there are several Harry Dean listings (boot repairer & widow) for the London Workhouse during the 1920s that might be worth looking into.

Hi Gritty - I have all this information from the poor law records and have no idea how Mardlin, Northampton is connected at this time, but if he did go there at all, he returned and the family were together again on the 1901 census. On the examination sheet it stated "appears Hackney" along with the note about the rates (I think those notes were added at a later date) so maybe he had been seen in the vicinity. After Amy and the children were resettled to the Hackney Workhouse July/August 1900, he followed suit in January 1901 and must have been discharged before the census was taken. Whatever happened to them as a family after that time, I suspect happened circa 1904 as this is when the youngest child, Helena, also known as Victoria Helen, was 'deserted', was returned to the Hackney Union and within a month had been sent to the Trowbridge Boarding Out Committee, boarded out with an elderly couple in Trowbridge and was there in 1911 at 10 years old. She was my husbands Grandma so the rest of her history is known.

On enlisting in the Army in 1885, his father was a professional shoe-maker turned leather dealer, but the whole time he with Amy and on the birth certificates and marriage cert, he was a tram or bus conductor for L.G.O. Co. I suspect he lost his job on the trams/buses and on 1901 census he was a telephone wireman - I have seen the later workhouse records you speak of and I did wonder if he had returned to that trade but just as a boot repairer - thanks for looking and I am bearing all this in mind - Ann

Have you been able to find any school records for the children?

Sometimes these will state parents' / guardians' names and could show whether or not Harry was absent.

Hi Gwyn - In 1901 there was only Dorothy left aged four - two had died as babies, and Grandma was only 2 months old and by 1904 she was in Trowbridge. So if there any school records between 1901 and 1911 to be seen, then I haven't found them. 1911 Dorothy was again with her mother after her mothers second marriage aged 14 and after that the only record I can find for her is her marriage certificate in 1917 stating that Harry was deceased. I don't think he was, probably just dead to that family.