Genealogy Chat

I am looking at a ralph duckers born in 1849.on the 1881 cenus he states he was born in malpas which I believe is/Wad a town or district in Cheshire. I found his his baptism record for malpas which states his parents names. Howeverthere is no birth record for him there. HHowever there is a birth record for his name which states birth Denbigh ire, registration district wrexham. Now to me that would appear to be wales not cheshire. The 1851census shows his name at an adress again relating to denbishire/wrexham and the parents names and the fathers occupation all match that shown for the baptism in malpas. I think it must be the same person. However I am concerning as to why someone could be horn in Wales and be baptised in malpas. I researched the Welsh and cheshire border in 1849 and it seems that some parts of the wales we know today were actually cheshire around that period. But I could jot a clear picture still .... I got so lost in the end doing so much research all at once and it wore me out. Any body got any clued about this? I would be most grateful for your help.

Freebmd is very good for this , eg just putting in as a sample 'Jones, Denbighsihre 1847 , will give you top result

Births Mar 1847 (>99%)
JONES Abednigo Wrexham 27 279

clicking on 'Wrexham" gives a breakdown of the civil parishes which include Malpas, and which county they are in , eg Malpas was ( is) Cheshire , but still under the Wrexham reg district.

lol it is quite confusing the way the borders change, the same applies to areas that might have been Essex but are now London/ Middlesex or vice versa.

Wrexham also covers Malpas
http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/genuki/reg/districts/wrexham.html

Malpas Cheshire 1837-1853
See Table 2, note (a).

Date of change 4.4.1853
(a) Lost the parishes of Agden, Bradley, Chidlow, Chorlton, Cuddington, Malpas, Newton by Malpas, Oldcastle, Overton, Stockton, Wigland, and Wychough, to Whitchurch registration district

Could one of the parents have family in Malpas, hence the baptism there? Might they have moved there sometime before his baptism? Census are a snap-shot in time. Without other records such as the birth reg of siblings, we can't really tell what they've been up to.
We sometimes see that people who spent their formative years in one place think they were born there.

that Welsh border region has been confusing even up to fairly recent times.

OH was actually born in Wales, but his birth registration is in Chester .........

........ the nursing home was about 1 mile inside Wales, but the border was moved a few years later and that same nursing home and village ended up in Cheshire.

There is no documentary evidence of his Welsh birth, other than what his parents told him


People did move back and forth between Wales and England, and intermarried.

Have you checked the birth places for his parents???

Welcome to the Community boards Rosemary.




(I'll let Rosemary know how to find her replies) :-)

Name Ralph Duckers
Gender Male
Christening Date 1849
Christening Place MALPAS, CHESTER, ENGLAND
Father's Name Richard Duckers
Mother's Name Margaret

Name Ralph Duckers
Event Type Death
Registration Quarter Apr-May-Jun
Registration Year 1884
Registration District Chester
County Cheshire
Event Place Chester, Cheshire, England
Age (available after 1866) 35
Birth Year (Estimated) 1849
Volume 8A
Page 264
Line Number 129

Ralph Ducker

England and Wales Census, 1871

Name Ralph Ducker
Event Type Census
Event Date 1871
Event Place Upton, Cheshire, England
Gender Male
Age 22
Marital Status Unmarried
Occupation Ordinary Attendant
Relationship to Head of Household Servant
Birth Year (Estimated) 1849
Birthplace Malpas, Cheshire
Entry Number 11
Affiliate Image Identifier GBC/1871/3728/0148



Household

Role

Gender

Age

Birthplace

Ann J Reade Daughter F 2 Marthate, Cheshire
Thomas B Warburton Servant M 45 Dean, Lancashire
Martha Warburton Wife F 46 Glossop, Derbyshire
Joseph W Williams Nephew M 16 Glossop, Derbyshire
Emma Davies Visitor F 35 Chester, Cheshire
John Parry Servant M 30 Wrecham, Derbyshire
William Edwards Servant M 23 Farndon, Cheshire
Arthur Prew Servant M 24 Wellington, Thropshire
John Nield Servant M 31 Morcelesfield, Cheshire
Ralph Ducker Servant M 22 Malpas, Cheshire
Hugh Smith Servant M 54 Ireland
Edward Davies Servant M 38 Boschurch, Shropshire
Margaret Davies Servant F 39 Slandilves, Montgomeryshire
Edmund Kelly Servant M 42 Ireland
Frederick Bebbington Servant M 23 Upton, Cheshire
William Walker Servant M 28 Chester, Cheshire
William Moore Servant M 31 Isle Of Man
Samuel Holloway Servant M 37 Towbridge, Wiltshire
Elizabeth Holloway Servant F 34 Stockton, Worcestershire
George Richardson Servant M 52 Chester, Cheshire
John Dobson Servant M 42 Levens, Westmorland
George Ducker Servant M 23 Tattenhall, Cheshire
John Callaghan Servant M 43 Ireland
Thomas D Mclewis Servant M 21 Wrescham, Denbighshire
John C O'Bryan Servant M 44 Ireland
Jane Wadley Servant F 33 Pershore, Worcestershire
Jeannette Weaver Servant F 30 Upton, Worcestershire
Martha Wynne Servant F 37 Cheshire
Emma Lowther Servant F 30 Birmingham, Warwickshire
Sarah Meridith Servant F 26 Chester, Cheshire
Ann Jones Servant F 24 Holywell, Flintshire
Mary Denman Servant F 30 Flint, Flintshire
Harriet Craven Servant F 22 Tarporley, Cheshire
Ann Nield Servant F 24 Macclesfield, Cheshire
Annie Owen Servant F 24 Holywell, Flintshire
Jane Owen Servant F 25 Wrexham, Denbighshire
Elizabeth Towers Servant F 28 Chester, Cheshire
Elizabeth Thompson Servant F 35 Weston, Cheshire
Amelia Jones Servant F 20 Chester, Cheshire
Mary Noon Servant F 21 Chester, Cheshire
Hannah Jones Servant F 24 Wrexham, Denbighshire
Kate Kelly Servant F 36 Ireland
Maria Sandland Servant F 26 Chester, Cheshire
Elizabeth Campbell Servant F 31 Liverpool, Lancashire
Sarah Denman Servant F 25 Flint, Flintshire
Mary J Mclevie Servant F 22 Wrexham, Denbighshire
Elizabeth A Caswell Servant F 21 Newcastle Upon Tyne, Northumberland
Geo Brown Servant M 54 Chester, Cheshire
Richard Butler Patient M 50 Yorkshire
Joseph Bowden Patient M 41 Stockport, Cheshire
John Burgess Patient M 40 Congleton, Cheshire
John Bowers Patient M 32 Cheshire
Robert Clark Patient M 42 Stockport, Cheshire
David Drysdale Patient M 38 Scotland
David Daft Patient M 37 Longborough, Leicestershire
John Etchells Patient M 38 Maresfield, Cheshire
Miles Forbes Patient M 50 Witherton, Lancashire
John Gott Patient M 46 Armley, Yorkshire
Henry Gleave Patient M 30 Altrincham, Cheshire
George Garner Patient M 36 Leek, Staffordshire
P J Hopkins Patient M 48 Fincham, Norfolk
Allen Harvey Patient M 36 Stockport, Cheshire
George Hodgson Patient M 25 Matterdale, Cumberland
James Kennedy Patient M 50 Ireland
Patrick Mindone Patient M 30 Ireland
Samuel Maylor Patient M 37 Oldham, Lancashire
Martin Murphy Patient M 40 Stalybridge, Cheshire
Ambrose Nixon Patient M 47 Agden, Cheshire
Benj Poynton Patient M 30 Cheshire
Samuel Bromley Patient M 27 Cheshire
James Pickering Patient M 47 Northwich, Cheshire
William Prescott Patient M 37 Chester, Cheshire
Alex Rogers Patient M 47 Cheshire
James Riley Patient M 52 Wolverhampton, Staffordshire
George Scott Patient M 50 Cheshire
Francis Sheridan Patient M 40 Ireland
George Stokes Patient M 51 Bickley, Cheshire
Patrick Stannton Patient M 41 Ireland
William Smith Patient M 60 Cheshire
Joseph Timperley Patient M 57 Warburton, Cheshire
John Wade Patient M 30 Cheshire
Alexander Weir Patient M 44 Scotland
Thomas Wheildon Patient M 54 Stockport, Cheshire
Wm Archer Patient M 56 Cambridgeshire
John Butterworth Patient M 49 Cheshire
Wm Billinge Patient M 70 Cheshire
John Bennett Patient M 36 Cheshire
Matthew Batty Patient M 30 Duckinfield, Cheshire
James Bowker Patient M 56 Lancashire
Samuel Boag Patient M 23 Stockport, Cheshire
Walter Burtenshaw Patient M 30 Denton, Lancashire
George Capper Patient M 45 Cheshire
John Coombs Patient M 67 Altrincham, Cheshire
Robt Drinkwater Patient M 17 Duckingfield, Cheshire
Samuel Davies Patient M 22 Stockport, Cheshire
Alfred Davis Patient M 22 Stockport, Cheshire
Richard Edwards Patient M 50 Stockport, Cheshire
Andrew Foster Patient M 31 Stockport, Cheshire

Name Ralph Duckers
Gender Male
Wife Elizabeth Duckers
Son Alfred Ernest Duckers

Other information in the record of Alfred Ernest Duckers

from England Births and Christenings

Name Alfred Ernest Duckers
Gender Male
Christening Date 1891
Christening Place ST. PETER, ROCK FERRY, CHESHIRE, ENGLAND
Birth Date 1883
Father's Name Ralph Duckers
Mother's Name Elizabeth Duckers

or



Name Ralph Duckers
Gender Male
Wife Sarah Jane
Son William Henry Duckers

Other information in the record of William Henry Duckers

from England, Cheshire Parish Registers

Name William Henry Duckers
Event Type Christening
Event Date 30 Jan 1876
Event Place St Mary, Birkenhead, Cheshire, England
Gender Male
Father's Name Ralph Duckers
Mother's Name Sarah Jane

Ralph Duckers

England and Wales Marriage Registration Index

Name Ralph Duckers
Event Type Marriage
Registration Quarter Jan-Feb-Mar
Registration Year 1869
Registration District Birkenhead
County Cheshire
Event Place Birkenhead, Cheshire, England
Volume 8A
Page 552
Line Number 47

Ralph Duckers probably married one of the following people
Name Sarah Davies
Name Sarah Jane Jones

Ralph Duckers

mentioned in the record of Evan Richard Duckers

Name Ralph Duckers
Gender Male
Wife Sarah Jane Duckers
Son Evan Richard Duckers

Other information in the record of Evan Richard Duckers

from England, Cheshire Parish Registers

Name Evan Richard Duckers
Event Type Other
Gender Male
Father's Name Ralph Duckers
Mother's Name Sarah Jane Duckers

Ralph Duckers

mentioned in the record of John Owen Duckers

Name Ralph Duckers
Gender Male
Wife Sarah Jane Duckers
Son John Owen Duckers

Other information in the record of John Owen Duckers

from England, Cheshire Parish Registers

Name John Owen Duckers
Event Type Other
Gender Male
Father's Name Ralph Duckers
Mother's Name Sarah Jane Duckers

Ralph Duckers

mentioned in the record of Ralph William Duckers

Name Ralph Duckers
Gender Male
Wife Sarah Jane Duckers
Child Ralph William Duckers

Other information in the record of Ralph William Duckers

from England, Cheshire Parish Registers

Name Ralph William Duckers
Event Type Other
Father's Name Ralph Duckers
Mother's Name Sarah Jane Duckers

R Alfred Duckers

England and Wales Census, 1881

Name R Alfred Duckers
Age (Original) 32
Gender Male
Birth Year 1849
Birthplace Malpas, Cheshire, England
Relationship to Head of Household Head
Marital Status Married
Occupation Painter
Address 9 Booth St
Event Place Tranmere, Cheshire, England
Record Type Household
Affiliate Publication Number RG11
Piece/Folio 3587 / 100
Page Number 25



Household

Role

Gender

Age

Birthplace

R Alfred Duckers Head M 32 Malpas, Cheshire, England
Sarah Jane Duckers Wife F 31 Wales
Evan R Duckers Son M 11 Birkenhead, Cheshire, England
John O Duckers Son M 9 Birkenhead, Cheshire, England
Maggie Duckers Daughter F 4 Chester, Cheshire, England
Fanny Smith Servant F 32 Birkenhead, Cheshire, England

I presume this is the baptism Rosemary refers to, although not necessarily this transcription:

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F31J-S9M
Ralp Duckers
England, Cheshire Parish Registers
Name Ralp Duckers
Event Type Christening
Event Date 08 May 1849
Event Place , Malpas, Cheshire, England
Gender Male
Father's Name Richard Duckers
Mother's Name Margaret

Here's the GRO index hits for Ralph plus Rich'd & Margt - I've included a couple of other names from the same or a previos page.
Births Jun 1849 (>99%)
DUCKERS Ralph Wrexham 27 288
SIVEL Mary Wrexham 27 288
Sudlow Henry Wrexham 27 288

Marriages Mar 1849 (>99%)
Duckers Richard Wrexham 27 380
Holywell John Wrexham 27 380
Jones William Wrexham 27 380
Martin James Wrexham 27 380
Molynoux Anna Wrexham 27 380
Taylor Mary Wrexham 27 380
Walker Margaret Wrexham 27 380
Williams Anne Wrexham 27 380
-----------
Pettegriw John Wrexham 27 379
Roberts Anne Wrexham 27 379


Using http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/local_bmd
In particular, http://www.cheshirebmd.org.uk/
Cheshire Birth indexes for the years: 1846 to 1850
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
DUCKERS Ralph Malpas Wrexham ML/5/30
SIVEL Mary Malpas Wrexham ML/5/29
SUDLOW Henry Malpas Wrexham ML/5/30

The local ref typ[ically has 3 elements:
1) a subdistrict (B/D) or marriage place code
2) a register sequence # (within the subdistrict or church)
3) an entry # or local page #. Local rego's have 2 M's or 5 B/D's per page.
The details were copied out for the GRO at the end of each quarter - the GRO pages had twice as many entries per page in the early days.

North Wales Marriage indexes for the years: 1849
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
DUCKERS Richard Match Possible Spouses Wrexham, St Giles Wrexham County Borough (Wrexham) C45/03/109
Possible Spouses
PETTEGRIN John C45/03/109
ROBERTS Ann C45/03/109
WALKER Margaret C45/03/109

As we see from the local birth index, Ralph was rego'ed in the Malpas subdistrict which was in Wrexham RD at that time.
We can confirm the local ref is our GRO ref as the other names on the GRO page are within 2 local pages (10 entries) of Ralph's local page.

Although, unusually, the local marr ref uses pages rather than entry #s, there is a better than 25% chance the GRO page is misaligned with the local page (will happen if there'd been an odd # of marrs before quarter began), and our marr is the first or last on a full GRO page (it was the first here).
When this happens we can still be sure who wed whom. Richard & Margt got wed at Wrexham, St Giles.


1851 [ho107/2502/349/4]
Joseph Duckus Margaret abt 1811 location relation city, Cheshire
Margaret Duckus Joseph abt 1796 location relation city, Cheshire

Richard Duckus Margaret abt 1829 location relation city, Cheshire
Margaret Duckus Richard abt 1826 location relation city, Cheshire
Ralph Duckus Richard,Margaret abt 1849 location relation city, Cheshire
[I don't have a sub to see further details, but Joseph & Richard are on the same page in difft h/h's. I guess they're related in some way.]

Ralph Duckers pob=Malpas, Cheshire on FS/FMP/GR
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SG88-ZZS

Unlike later years, 1851 piece #s might cover bits from multiple subdistricts, as below.
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/
Reference: HO 107/2502
Description:
Registration District: 611. WREXHAM.

Registration Sub-District: 1 Hope ff.1-319.
Parish: Mold (part). Hamlet: Tryddyn(Flint). Divided between HO 107/2501 and 2502.
Parish: Hope (Flint). Hamlet: Caergwyle; Hamlet: Cymmau; Hamlet: Estyn; Hamlet: Hope-Owen; Hamlet: Rhanberfedd; Hamlet: Shordley; Hamlet: Uwch-y-Mynydd-Isaf; Hamlet: Uwch-y-Mynydd-Uchaf.
Parish: Gresford (part). Hamlet: Merford and Hosely (Flint). Divided between HO 107/2502 and 2503; Hamlet: Rosset. Divided between HO 107/2502 and 2503; Hamlet: Llay. Divided between HO 107/2502 and 2503; Hamlet: Burton. Divided between HO 107/2502 and 2503; Hamlet: Allington. Divided between HO 107/2502 and 2503; Hamlet: Gresford. Divided between HO 107/2502 and 2503; Hamlet: Gwersyllt. Divided between HO 107/2502 and 2503.
Parish: Wrexham (part). Hamlet: Brymbo. Divided between HO 107/2502 and 2503.

Registration Sub-District: 2 Malpas ff.320-End.
Parish: Shocklach (Ches) (part). Hamlet: Church Shocklach. Rest is in HO 107/2171; Hamlet: Oviatt Shocklach. Rest is in HO 107/2171.
Parish: Malpas (Ches) (part). Hamlet: Overton. Rest is in HO 107/1994, 2170 and 2171; Hamlet: Chorlton. Rest is in HO 107/1994, 2170 and 2171; Hamlet: Malpas. Rest is in HO 107/1994, 2170 and 2171; Hamlet: Newton-juxta-Malpas. Rest is in HO 107/1994, 2170 and 2171; Hamlet: Bradley. Rest is in HO 107/1994, 2170 and 2171; Hamlet: Chidlow. Rest is in HO 107/1994, 2170 and 2171; Hamlet: Agden. Rest is in HO 107/1994, 2170 and 2171; Hamlet: Wigland. Rest is in HO 107/1994, 2170 and 2171; Hamlet: Stockton. Rest is in HO 107/1994, 2170 and 2171; Hamlet: Wichaugh. Rest is in HO 107/1994, 2170 and 2171.
Parish: Malpas (Ches) (part). Rest is in HO 107/1994, 2170 and 2171. Hamlet: Oldcastle; Hamlet: Cuddington.
Parish: Worthenbury (Flint).
Parish: Bangor. Hamlet: Eyton; Hamlet: Royton; Hamlet: Pickhill; Hamlet: Sesswick; Hamlet: Bangor (Flint).
Parish: Holt. Hamlet: Dutton Diffeth; Hamlet: Dutton Cacca; Hamlet: Dutton-y-Bran; Hamlet: Holt; Hamlet: Ridley; Hamlet: Sutton.
Parish: Threapwood (Pt Flint Pt Ches).
Parish: Marchwiel. Hamlet: Marchwiel; Hamlet: Sontley.

Date: 1851


Wrexham itself is in the tongue of Denbigh that separates the two bits of Flint.
Wrexham RD is nominally in Denbigh registration county but, as we see from the NA hit posted above, it spills over into Flint & Cheshire.
In fact, a great many rego districts cross county borders. I would guess there's no historic English or Welsh county that's always been totally covered by RDs that didn't also cover some bit of another county.

Thank you so much for all these replies, it's very kind of you to help me and I thank you for your time. You have given me really useful information that both answers my confusion and more that I have not yet found. I will get this printed off as soon as I can and work with it from there. Thank you for time. Rosemary x

a pleasure <3