Genealogy Chat

I recently discovered an entry on a family tree which was part of the Visitation of Heralds to Cheshire.
Most of the Cheshire families are noted, I think, and show a brief family tree or line of decent.
The one I looked at is dated 1580.
Unfortunately although the names and relationships are shown there are no dates alongside the names. So that at 1580 there are on most ,shown seven previous generations.
I haven't any idea where to start trying to 'prove' the latter names are baptised or married or even buried, but I guess some entries might refer to people around in the 1400's.

I have looked on Family Search, but without a possible date, I dont know how to narrow it down-
Any suggestions please. And would I be able to read the script anyway?
:-S

Heraldic visitation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heraldic_visitation Cached
Heraldic visitation Frontispiece of ... Cheshire Visitation Pedigrees, ... "The Heralds' Visitation of Warwickshire, ...

1533-1580 The Cheshire Visitations - Cheshire Heraldry
cheshire-heraldry.org.uk/visitations Cached
The Visitations of Cheshire 1533 to 1580 These pages feature illustrations of the armorial bearings recorded at the Heralds' Visitations of Cheshire in the years 1533 ...

VISITATION OF CHESHIRE - The Family History Socirty of ...
fhsc.org.uk/visitations Cached
VISITATION OF CHESHIRE. The South Cheshire FHS are proud to be able to host these two important documents on behalf of Derek Whitmore. The first book for the year ...

Full text of "The visitation of Cheshire in the year 1580"
www.archive.org/stream/visitationofches00glov/visitationofches00... Cached
Full text of "The visitation of Cheshire in the year 1580" See other formats ...

I have looked at the web sites you have suggested, and they seem to contain the information I have,
What i am looking for is the actual date of a birth, marriage and burial of the named people.
For instance one Oliver Massey, whom I guess was born around 1309, but where? and was he baptised in a church and are those records available?.

I have been looking for the marriage of Hugh Massey and Jane Smith- whose father I know was an alderman of Chester, Sir Thomas Smith, who I believe was involved with the Virginia trading company and died with debts of £8000, in 1675. But for their marriage, i have not yet found any dates.

thanks for looking ,

????????

Name Hugh Massie
Event Type Burial
Event Date 19 Nov 1548
Event Place , Burton, Cheshire, England
Gender Male

Sir Thomas Smith was an English politician who sat in the House of Commons between 1640 and 1644.

Smith was the son of Laurence Smith, of Hatherton, Cheshire and his wife Anne Mainwaring, daughter of Sir Randall Mainwaring of Over Peover.[1] He was knighted on 21 July 1615.[2] In 1622, he was mayor of the city of Chester and in 1623 High Sheriff of Cheshire.

Smith was an alderman of Chester and in April 1640, was elected Member of Parliament for City of Chester in the Short Parliament. He was re-elected MP for Chester for the Long Parliament in November 1640.[3] Smith was disabled from sitting in parliament on 22 January 1644 for supporting the King.

Smith married Mary Smith, daughter of Sir Hugh Smith, of Long Ashton, Somerset, and had twenty-two children. His son Thomas became a baronet.[1]

Yes I read that report.
I suppose he could have been 30 at 1622 when he was mayor of Chester . that would imply he was born c 1590
And since he died in 1675 he would have been 85. Not impossible ,but ...and he had a son Thomas a baronet too?
The burial of Hugh Massie at Burton ? Warburton? In 1548 is more supportable since his son died in 1591 ( will) but where is that location?
And that means Thomas Smith that father in law died ,27 years later than Hugh .again possible but dodgy don't you think?

Thanks for your 'interest

Constituency

Dates



CHESTER

Oct. 1553



CHESTER

Nov. 1554

Family and Education

b. by 1512, s. of Edward Massey of Broxton by Anne, da. of Richard or William Sneyd of Chester. m. by 1538, Elizabeth, da. and coh. of David Myddelton of Chester, 2s. 1da.1

Offices Held


Alderman, Chester by 1541.2

Biography

Thomas Massey’s branch of a family dispersed throughout Cheshire was seated ten miles from Chester but he may have owed his establishment in that city rather to his marriage to a daughter and coheir of David Myddelton, mayor of Chester in 1523 and 1538. Massey is first mentioned in the city records in 1533 as the owner of a house in Eastgate Street. In 1542, as lessee of a house in Watergate Street, he was registered to perform the three nightwatches at Christmas to which his tenure of the property rendered him liable. It was as of Chester that in October 1545 he had a grant from the crown, for £133, of lands at Halton and Llantysilio, Denbighshire. Three years later he shared the executorship of David Myddelton’s will with his brothers-in-law Sir William Norris and Sir John Salusbury.3

From its enfranchisement in 1543 Chester appears to have elected to each Parliament the recorder and one prominent citizen, usually an alderman. It was the second place which Massey, styled alderman on the return, filled in the first and third of Mary’s Parliaments. The duty entailed was no light one, for the city faced a number of problems which called for action at Westminster. Soon after Massey and the recorder, his kinsman Richard Sneyd, had begun to attend the Parliament of November 1554 they received a letter from the city authorities about the charter which William Aldersey had procured for the merchant adventurers of Chester; this was likely to prove so harmful to the city that the two Members were to raise the subject with the chancellor. What came of this has not been discovered, but Massey may well have approached Stephen Gardiner through his cousin the chancellor’s servant Robert Massey, who sat in this Parliament for the Flint Boroughs. If Massey was expected to court Gardiner’s favour it seems tactless of him to have been one of the Members who were absent when the House was called early in January 1555, but as he was not prosecuted he presumably convinced the authorities that this dereliction had no political significance.4

Massey died on 20 Apr. 1564 when his elder son David was 25. His daughter Jane was the second wife of Simon Thelwall.5

The Origin of the name Massey came from Ferte de Macei in France near Mont St. Michel. The name has several spellings: De Mace', de Macei, de Mascy or de Massy. Gradually the name became de Massey and the plain Massey by 1250 or so.

A Norman from Ferte de Mace', France married Margaret de Sacie, daughter of Lord Sacie. This was our Hamon de Macei the First. He died in 1101.

Going back, the ancestor of this Hamon was Osmund de Cenevilles whose son was given lordships southeast of Paris. This Hamon de Corbeil (of Ferte de Mace) helped to complete a cathedral in Corbeil in 950. He died in 957 and is buried in this cathedral. His great-grandson, Hamon Denatus ("Rattlejaw") died in 1047 fighting against Duke William who later became William the Conqueror.

There are conflicting reports on the Abbey rolls that Hamon de Mace or de Macei the first fought in the battle of Hastings in 1066, commanding a force of sixty archers. other rolls list other de Macei names. Some historians think Hamon deMacei's father was the one mentioned. A Mathieu de Mace was in the battle of Hastings and commanded eighty knights. Mathieu and Hamon were closely associated in 1192 and were no doubt relatives.

After the battle of Hastings, William the Conqueror gave an earldom in the Chester area of conquered England to his nephew Hugh Lupus, "The Wolf". Lupus in turn had the power to create baronies. he created eight and one became a baron , Hamon de Macei the First and was called Denham-Massey after the village of Denham. A Saxon names Elured formerly held the lands which were considerable in area.

Later, King Rufus in 1087, who was the son of William the Conqueror, gave Hamon I a good deal more land because he was a "proficient archer".

Hamon I was listed in the domeday book of 1089. He built a castle Denham-Massey which was partially destroyed by King Richard the III. Now only the mound site remains.

Hamon II Married Eleanor de Beaumont and died in 1140. Hamon III married Agatha de Theray. He founded Abbey Berkett in Chesire, England. He and his son Robert took the side of King John when the nobles forced King John to sign the Magna Carta in 1215. Later the King was beheaded.

Hamon III rebelled against King Henry II and lost some of his lands. Years later lands were returned to the Massey's. Hamon IV (born approximately 1181) gave a church of Bowdon to the Priory of Berkenhead. as a marriage present he gave the entire town of Stretford, England to his daughter in 1250.

Hamon V, known as "Ould sir Hamon", was born in 1210, died in 1273. He married Ciceley Gernet who gave land for a leper colony.

Hamon VI was born in 1256, died in 1342. His daughter Alice married William Standley who became Chancellor of England in 1353 during the reign of Edward III. For three generations the Massey-Standley families were prominent at court and even hyphenated the names during this time. A woman Massey, lady in waiting to the Queen, had charge of the royal children under Henry VII and a Massey was royal chambermaid to Henry VII. Hamon VI led an army of 4,000 foot soldiers against William Wallace a Scot, who was leading a Scottish rebellion. His third wife, Joan Clinton, was very extravagant forcing him to sell land. Leaving no heirs, the land passed out of the Massey Family. The reign of the barons lasted 260 years.

The family continued however, from William, the younger brother of Hamon V to a Richard in 1322 to a Hamon de Pontington (Estate Name) He was knighted by the crown in 1347. The next important Massey was Sr John de Pontington, knighted in 1380. He was commissioned by Richard II to quell the Irish uprising. His son, Hammond, was knighted in 1389. His son, Sir Hugh married Ann bold in 1389. She was heir to Coddington Estates.

In the early 1300's a de Tatton branch of the Massey family was founded. Our branch was the de Pontington Coddington. A son, William Coddington Massey was knighted in 1435 and married Alice Wooton. His grandson, Nicholas Massey moved to Ely England. It is now Cambridge


The Massey Family of England - geni.com
www.geni.com/projects/The-Massey-Family-of-England/18314 Cached
... The Massey Family of England. ... William the Conqueror gave an earldom in the Chester area of ... In the early 1300's a de Tatton branch of the Massey ...

I am working from the 1580 Heralds tree on the MASSY family of Tatton of which the Denfield branch descended from Oliver Massy, the third son. Born about 1310?

Oliver's grandson William Massey of Denfield married Alice Booth a daughter of a Sir William Booth ( the Booths were grandfather and grandson involved in the civil war) .

I need to verify the date of that marriage if possible.which would anchor the time line a little more.

Have you thought of contacting Cheshire Archives to see if they know where the PR are held? Its always possible they haven't survived.
http://archives.cheshire.gov.uk/home.aspx

If Tatton Park was an orginal or associated Seat, its managed by Cheshire East Council. They may know where family records are held. The Tatton Park web site does say it belonged to the Egerton family, so perhaps not?

If you haven't already, have a read of the following regarding Heraldic Visitations. There are further links within the page
http://www.genguide.co.uk/source/heraldic-visitations/40/

Thank you for that suggestion ,I shall try the CRO , they may have more information than what could be found on / in a PR , even if they survived.

Thanks

http://fhsc.org.uk/visitations/

(Family History Society of Cheshire)

(above also worth a contact perhaps, take a look on link, useful)

Chris :)

(probably same as Ann had above)

hi.

This is the copy of the records made from the visitations, and is one of the copies I have been using, p171. Massy of Tatton.

When the heralds made the record , people were asked to supply names of their previous ancestors, which they did, not all accurate, but of course they didn't give dates. If you can find marriages or a will, or burials you can begin to map it out, But otherwise its just a bunch of names. And that really dosnt prove much.

I have already found an Alice Booth m to William Massey on different trees with a 30 year gap in dates.
And Jane Prestland and another William Massey, one pair as 1557 & 1553 and another shown as 1567, so its hard to know if its a transcription error, or two sets of people.
Just have to keep looking... :-S -- thank you

Someone else had a query about Heraldic Visitations a while ago, although not this particular 'tree'.
Digging around on the internet, it became clear that even Victorian researchers were taking it all with a pinch of salt.

The geni link given earlier did say something about the Heralds requesting documented proof, and that those were copied and retained. Did you follow all the links within that page? You may find that at some point you'd need to fork out sums to view the source material in person or to have them copied for you

Yes I have found that there are different connections on some trees. And without firm dates it is hard to be sure.

I am going to try and get as many wills as possible , although they don't always show relationships as we would , cousins can be a very loose term!

At this period it seems parish records were on single sheets and then later...bound into a volume . the result often bring lost pages or out of order, or damaged sheets. Some not stored properly and lost forever. But one keeps hoping !

Thanks for your input.

Thank you for the on line suggested connections, I have spent some time looking at these.

It seems there were queries on some of the pedigrees written up.
At the visitation of 1663 for William Massey of Denfield the painted coat of arms on 'pap', were shown. So authorising the entry.
On another it is suggested that the property at Denfield was given to John,c 1300, the illegitimate son of Sir William Massey of Tatton, but the later dates are still illusive.
I have the will for Hugh Massey who died in 1620, its the people in between who are hard to pin down.

..

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/genealogy_chat/thread/1359220