Genealogy Chat

Mark Marks is my ggg grandfather and by the looks of his name, you would have thought i am from a jewish family. BUT 10 years later i am still looking for the jewish connection and still i cannot find it. I have completely hit the brick wall and im at a loss as to where to look next!

Mark Marks was born abt 1791 in Bloomsbury, london and died by committing suicide in 1849 living at 93 Blackman Street, London.

He married at St Martins in the fields,Westminster to Elizabeth Waltham 25th Dec 1813 which is a Christian church and his employment was a Carver & Gilder.

i have found his Military records, newspaper cuttings from when he went bankrupt and others newspaper records when his friend and neighbour was stabbed, yet i cannot find any birth records or any information as to who his parents are?

can anyone please give me any advice as to where i can look for this information.

i have tried jewishgen and i also have subs for ancestry

many thanks in advance

Annie

???
First name(s) Mark
Last name Marks
Role Apprentice
Indenture or registration year 1808
Registration year 1808
Place -
County -
Apprentice's first name(s) Mark
Apprentice's last name Marks
Master's first name(s) Montague
Master's last name Barnett
Master's occupation Watchmaker
Master's place Stepney
Master's county Middlesex
The National Archives reference (IR 1 series) 40 f 113
Society of Genealogists number 402281
Record type Records
Record set Britain, country apprentices 1710-1808
Category Education & work
Subcategory Apprentices
Collections from Great Britain

Probably a bit late for a 1791 birth

Christenings
Name Mark Marks
Gender Male
Christening Date 23 Feb 1800
Christening Place ST MARY WHITECHAPEL,STEPNEY,LONDON,ENGLAND
Father's Name Mark Marks
Mother's Name Mary
Citing this Record
"England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:J77Z-MJF : 6 December 2014), Mark Marks, 23 Feb 1800; citing ST MARY WHITECHAPEL,STEPNEY,LONDON,ENGLAND, reference ; FHL microfilm 94,695.
No image available
England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975

Just because it came up


First name(s) Mark
Last name Marks
Birth year -
Year 1845-54
Regiment 12th Dragoons
Regiment / service number as transcribed 12th Dragoons
Pension year 1817
Death year 1849
Series WO 23 - Royal Hospital Chelsea: admission books, registers, and papers 1702-1876
Archive The National Archives
Archive reference WO 23
Piece number 34
Piece description 6 Dragoons to Waggon Train. Dates of service 1820-1854.
Year range 1845-1854
Record set British Army Service Records
Category Military, armed forces & conflict
Subcategory Service Records
Collections from Great Britain
Findmypast

Westminster Banns Transcription

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First name(s) Mark
Last name Marks
Banns year -
Marriage year 1813
Marriage date 25 Dec 1813
Residence St Martin In The Fields
Spouse's first name(s) Elizabeth
Spouse's last name Waltham
Spouse's residence St Martin In The Fields
Parish St Martin-in-the-Fields
County Middlesex
Country England
Archive City of Westminster Archives Centre
Page 152
Record set Westminster Banns
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Marriages & divorces
Collections from Great Britain

baptised 3 weeks before marriage

no where on the baptism image does it say his birth year


Westminster Baptisms Transcription

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First name(s) Mark
Last name Marks
Birth year 1813
Birth date ? ? 1813
Baptism year 1813
Baptism date 04 Dec 1813
Father's first name(s) Henry
Mother's first name(s) Mary
Parish St Martin-in-the-Fields
County Middlesex
Country England
Page 83
Archive City of Westminster Archives Centre
Record set Westminster Baptisms
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Births & baptisms
Collections from Great Britain

Hi
Many thanks for taking the time in posting. yes, some of the posts relate to my Mark Marks, and some i know for sure do not.

I had wondered when i had found the Baptism in 1813 was my mark and shelved it as i have no way of proving it.

ive hit that brick wall and just dont know where else to look further regarding his parents. i appear to have found out most things of his adult life, but it just doesn't give up any of his childhood.

many thanks again for taking the time in helping me

Kind regards
Annie

Annie

where did you get the birth year of 1791 from?

If only from the 1841 Census, are you aware that ages of persons over the age of 15 were to be rounded DOWN to the nearest 5.

A few enumerators did not do that, but most did ................ one way to tell is if every adult has an age ending in either 5 or 0

What it does mean is that you have to widen your search to 1791 +/- 5 years.

looking at the 1841 Census for Mark Marks .................. the enumerator did round down the ages by 5

so Mark could have been born as early as 1787

?????????

the images are on ancestry's new Fold3, and I don't have a sub to that

UK, Royal Hospital Chelsea Pensioner Soldier Service Records, 1760-1920

Name: Private Mark Marks
Age: 20 <<<<<<<<<<
Birth Date: abt 1795 <<<<<<<<<
Birth Place: Bloomsbury Middlesex
Service Start Year: 1815
Service End Year: 1817
Regiment: 12th (Or PW) Royal Regt Of Lancers


UK, Royal Hospital Chelsea Pensioner Admissions and Discharges, 1715-1925

Name: Mark Marks
Pension Admission or Examination Age: 25 <<<<<<<<<
Birth Year: abt 1792 <<<<<<<<<<<<
Birth Place: Bloomsbury, London Middx
Pension Admission or Examination Date: 25 Jun 1817
Regiment: 12 Dragoons Sir II: Payne


are these the same person or 2 different Mark Marks???

the 1813 baptism may be worth considering as he named two of his children Henry and Mary Ann. Just a thought

could this be mark in 1841

Mark Marks
England and Wales Census, 1841
Census
Event Date
1841
Event Place
St Giles In The Fields, Middlesex, England
Residence Note
Brownlow Street
Gender
Male
Age
50-54
Age (Original)
50
Occupation
Null
Birth Year (Estimated)
1787-1791
Birthplace
Middlesex
Registration District
St Giles & St George
Book Number
3
Parish
St Giles In The Fields
County
Middlesex
Page Number
64
Registration Number
HO107
Piece/Folio
673/36
Affiliate Record Type
Institution
Household
Role
Gender
Age
Birthplace
Mark Marks

M
50-54
Middlesex

could it be mark was baptised in 1813 because he was to marry that year to Elizabeth

I have seen baptism's 30yrs after people were born

Hi

Sylviaincanada - many thanks for looking for me and the info. I got his birth year 1791 from the Coroners Report in 1849 which said he was about 58 when he died, although his military records state he was 19 years when he entered into the army on 23rd oct 1815 and 20 years when discharged on 24th June 1817 (so thinking on that, i do need to take another look based on this army records) as im guessing they would be more accurate for his age? (i only just recently found his army records and never twigged the age)

Maddie & Malyon - Thank you, i didn't think of that, him naming his children could have been after his parents so this could be his baptism. so with that in mind, im guessing his not jewish?

many thanks again everyone

Annie

That Baptism gives, Henry occ. Auctioneer, 15 Great Newport Street...

(might relate below, given area)

Chris :)


15 March 1809 - London Courier and Evening Gazette - London, London

Bankrupts
Henry Marks, High-street. Si. Giles in The Fields, salesman. dealer


Edits (can see articles relating to Death of Mark, mentions of his friend Ephraim Burford, looks to be below, aged 40, he jumped off Vauxhall Bridge)

Deaths Jun 1849 (>99%)
----------------------------------------------------
Burford Ephraim Westminster 1 341


England Deaths and Burials 1538-1991 Transcription (Find My Past)

First name(s) Mark
Last name Marks
Age at death 58
Birth year 1791
Burial year 1849
Burial date 17 Apr 1849
Parish Southwark, St George The Martyr
Address Blackman St
City London
County Surrey


First name(s) Ephriam
Last name Burford
Gender Male
Event year 1849
Birth year 1809
Age at death 40y
Burial year 1849
Burial date 16 Apr 1849
Burial place St. Mary At Lambeth, Surrey County, England
Residence 5 Bateman's Buildings
Place St. Mary At Lambeth


(others also named Mark Marks)

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/rd/efb953d5-a712-4074-9505-688fbc8108f5

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/rd/ff4877d2-5e1e-4839-abf7-8e6e34ba814f

Thank you chris. can you please tell me which newspaper you read regarding the death of mark marks and mentioning Ephraim Burford as i always thought he was depressed after his friend was stabbed Mr Gregory, although this was in 1824!!

this was the paper i found regarding mark marks death

THE MORNING POST newspaper dated 12th April 1849:
Mark Marks aged 56, looking glass dealer, Blackman st, who hanged himself! It is supposed, from depression of spirits, produced by the death of an intimate friend and the badness of trade.

Annie

I think Chris may be wrong in linking Mark Marks with Ephraim Burford

Looking on FMP at the image of the report of the death of Mark Marks ................ Ephraim is mentioned next BUT I think they are separate entries, one does not refer to the other.

It is a description of inquests on suicides (reported in the Bristol Morning Post ........ a sentence or two on several suicides. No separation between them apart form the "period" at the end of the sentence and the fact that the next sentence begins with the name.



FMP provides access to the British Newspaper Archives, GR can also access those FMP records (if you have the right sub)

OR you can go to

http://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/


do the free search, then buy credits if you find ayhting interesting.

Hi, yes i think you are right. i have just bought a sub on the BNA and it is slightly confusing in the way it is written.

Thanks for clarifying

Annie

(apologies there folks, just had another look, yes, they follow each other)

All very sad...

Chris :)

Edits (the 1824 Stabbing, mentioning Mark Marks, not him below is it?, from that N.A. link posted earlier, just wondered seeing Mr Gregory, a straw hat manufacturer)

(Insured: Mark Marks, 30 High Street St Giles's, hatter
Date: 22 February 1831)

(he appears on below)

https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=def2-1289-18350511&div=t18350511-1289&terms=southwark#highlight

no worries and thanks for the link to the old bailey. interesting read but thankfully not my Mark Marks as he was a Carver & Gilder