Genealogy Chat

Yes I have the wedding certificate.
I'm going away for a couple of days but when I get back I'll see if I can post it on here so you can see it.

Thank you for your reply.

Must be a mistake!, his Birth is there, 1855.

Do you have that Birth Cert.?...

Chris :)

Deaths Dec 1926 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------
MEYNELL Walter E J 73 Wolverhampton 6b 560


(notes on 1891 Baptism of Cecilia Agnes Meynell, says Walter Edward James)

Hi does anyone have any other idea or thoughts as to why Walters age was shown on his birthday certificate as 58 as opposed to 68.

I can put a copy of the wedding certificate on here if that is possible and would help to answer this query.

Births Sep 1855 (>99%)
-----------------------------------------------------------
MEYNELL Walter Wolverhampton 6b 392

(this is Walter, Father should match that 1923 Marriage Cert.)

Chris :)

Births Jun 1859 (>99%)
------------------------------------------------------
Meynell Jane Wolverhampton 6b 397


Deaths Dec 1864 (>99%)
-------------------------------------------------------
Meynell Jane Wolverhampton 6b 272


21 December 1864 - Wolverhampton Chronicle and Staffordshire Advertiser

Death
On the 15th instant, Jane, the only daughter of Mr. Edward James Meynell, of George-street, Wolverhampton, aged 5 years and 10 months.


Edits (from GRO Index)

MEYNELL, WALTER (BRAZIER)
GRO Reference: 1855 S Quarter in WOLVERHAMPTON Volume 06B Page 392


Marriages Mar 1853 (>99%)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
BRAZIER Sarah Ann Wolverhampton 6b 576
MEYNELL Edward James Wolverhampton 6b 576

I`ll check with Stanley`s son who I am doing the research for if Ruth has a middle name, but will have to wait he lives in America and the time difference over there means its only 7.40, he`s probably still in bed.
Or on the golf course.

Austin: Thats true sorry didn't connect that the info was from the 1939 register.

If Ruth is still living then her record on the 1939 register should be hidden(Unless it is by mistake)?

Chris Ho. Samuel and Lucy Jane are Harriet's parents..I have some reference to them somewhere in my pile of paperwork.
Again I will go over your submission again and see if there's anything different to my info.

Thanks Austin, yes got most of that information but will go over your submission again in case there's something I've missed.

Still doesn't explain the difference in Walters age on their wedding certificate. Has anyone any other ideas that I haven't thought of.

Ruth is still alive, so yes could possibly be her. Trouble is the family is very fragmented and secretive.
Just don't understand why in this day and age, but have to accept everyone's personal preferences.

Possibly Ruth? (a closed record underneath): but still don't see Harriet

1939 Register:
Powell Household 31 Shrewsbury Road , Wellington R.D., Shropshire, England

Ellen Powell 20 Sep 1861 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Widowed
Sarah (Elizabeth) Pellington 26 Jul 1891 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Widowed
Ruth Arnold (Maynell) 27 Nov 1928 Female At School Single
Closed Record
--------------------------------------------

Marriage: to surname Arnold 1948 (Hidden as this Ruth still living)

------------------------------------------

This Ruth still appears to be on the 2014 electoral register? So is it the correct one?

(saw the Death last night but, hadn't got to her Baptism AQ, below relate also, Parents Samuel/Lucy Jane)

Not jumping out on 1939, that's for sure!...

Chris :)

Baptisms

Alice Lizzie WATTS Baptism 6 Jun 1897 Staffordshire Ettingshall Park : Holy Trinity : (Born 6 May 1897)

Samuel WATTS Baptism 13 Dec 1903 Staffordshire Ettingshall Park : Holy Trinity :

George William WATTS Baptism 13 Dec 1903 Staffordshire Ettingshall Park : Holy Trinity


Burial
County Staffordshire
Place (link for place information) Sedgley
Church name All Saints
Register type Parish Register
Register entry number 1920
Burial date 12 Mar 1923
Person age 55
Burial person forename Lucy Jane
Burial person surname WATTS
Burial person abode Ettingshall

http://www.freereg.org.uk/

Chris- not sure if it was answered- this is the birth date for Harriet:

Staffordshire baptisms Transcription

First name(s) Harriet Ann
Last name Watts
Birth year 1895
Birth date 21 May 1895 <<<<<<<<<<<<<
Baptism year 1897
Baptism date 06 Jun 1897
Baptism place Ettingshall, Holy Trinity
Denomination Anglican
Father's first name(s) Samuel
Mother's first name(s) Lucy Jane
County Staffordshire
Country England
Archive reference D4071/1/2
Page 214
Register type Baptism
--------------------------------------

Death:
First name(s) HARRIET ANN
Last name MEYNELL
Gender Female
Birth day 21
Birth month 5
Birth year 1895
Death quarter 4
Death year 1983
District SANDWELL
County Staffordshire
Volume 33 Page 1142

(looking on google, would say Cardigan Street, as below)

Chris :)

Marriages Dec 1924 (>99%)
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ekins Isabell Stephens Preston 8e 942
Stephens Thomas W Ekins Preston 8e 942


1939 Register (Find My Past)
Thomas W Stephens 31 Jan 1903 Male Motor Lorry Driver Heavy Worker Married
Isabella Carter (Stephens) 02 Jun 1903 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married
Elizabeth Morrow (Stephens) 16 Apr 1925 Female Cotton Mill Card Room Doffer Single


Deaths Dec 1945 (>99%)
------------------------------------------------------------------
Stephens Thomas W 42 Amounderness 8e 569

(from Newspaper article, Death, Sharoe Green Hospital)


Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1903

STEPHENS Thomas William (FISHER) St John Preston ST.J/43/21


Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1903

EKINS Isabella (TURNER) St Peters Preston ST.P/74/3

http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/


26 May 1945 - Lancashire Evening Post - Preston, Lancashire, England

Robson's Tobacconist, 248. Fylde Road,


Marriages Jun 1931 (>99%)
----------------------------------------------------------
Melling Evelyn Robson Preston 8e 1166
Robson Norman Melling Preston 8e 1166


1939 Register

248 Fylde Road , Preston C.B., Lancashire,
Norman Robson 31 Jul 1907 Male Artificial Silk Spinner Married
Evelyn Robson 12 Jun 1906 Female Unpaid House Duties Married
Harry Melling 28 Jan 1910 Male Wireman's Labourer Single


(Parents of Mellings below)

Marriages Sep 1896 (>99%)
------------------------------------------------
GARNETT Mary Preston 8e 1076
Melling James Preston 8e 1076

(1911 at, 14 Brewery Street Preston, Preston, Lancashire)

Sorry to take so long to reply to all your suggestions and information, very busy time of year, but here goes.

Shirley~I,m getting the hang of it. Thanks for the info, I haven't gone any further with the Michael Meynell information, but I will get to it eventually.

Patricia, Pat. Thank you, I knew Stanley personally, my wife is his sons wife sister, and it was a shock when we found out about his death.

Mel Fairy Godmother: The info about Edna is intriguing, I had`nt thought of looking foe a surname of the mother. However the M is a mystery, i`m assured Edna`s middle name was Joyce. Only thought I have is the M for Meynell.

Kay????: Same as above. The year is right but I have Edna`s wedding certificate married to a Horace Sefton Bradley on 26th December 1946. She was 30 he was 34, but Edna`s name is on the certificate as Meynell, and her father as Walter, a brass founder, and H A Meynell, (Harriet) as a witness.

Mel Fairy Godmother: The probate is Walters I`ve already seen it on Findmy past but thank you.

Now to Walters initials of W E.
I have Walter`s and Harriet`s wedding certificate, and it clearly shows his name as Walter Edward James Meynell.
Now there is a problem with this certificate which I will tell you about next, but first the discrepancy about the W J as opposed to E J.
Hows this sound. Look at the keyboard you are probably using to type with.
Its a qwerty keyboard, the W and E are next to each other. It could just be that the transcriber hit the W key instead of the E.
Or
As he/she typed the name Walter, the W was on His/Her mind and instead of typing E they typed W.

My dad was called Sherlock, think thats where I get my imagination from.

Now to the problem with Walter and Harriet`s wedding certificate.

It would appear that a batch of blank wedding certificates were printed foe this parish, Chester,
The date at the top left has been pre-printed with 191, leaving the clerk to put in the year number 0 to 9.
This wedding certificate has the 1 after the 19 overwritten with a 2, showing 192 then the 3, to signify 1923.
The date in the box (When Married) is also overwritten with a 2.
Obviously the parish didnt want to waste the certificates, but oh boy does it create problems for inquisitive minds like ours.

Now please bare with me because there is a second problem with the information on this wedding certificate, and its this.
Walters age is put as 58. Take 58 from 1923 and it is 1865, a 10 year difference in Walters birthday.

But Sherlock rules again, Harriet`s age of 28, puts her at born in 1895, her supposed birth date.
Not happy with that I have looked at the 1901 census and Harriet is on that and the age matches.
Then I checked the 1911 census and Harriet is living with another family as their servant and again the age is correct.
So I conclude that the wedding date of 1923 is also correct, which also happens to be in the Oct of that year 8 months after Walter`s first wife died.
(Harriet was taken on to look after Walters first wife during her illness), and apparently she looked after Walters needs too. Sorry about that.

So why was Walters age on the wedding certificate put as 58, when it should be 68.

Another case of Chinese whispers again or vanity.

Mel the reference to Walter in the 1911 info you posted also confirms his age as 56, so he couldn`t be 58 in 1923, which makes his birth date correct at 1855.
The family he is living with in that census,
Mary Ann Meynell 52
Cecilia Agnes Meynell 19
Edith Louise Meynell 18
Annie Beatrice Clarkson 22
is his first wife and their children.

Gwyn in Kent: thanks for that, not sure how to look at baptisms, but I am aware that Baptisms and actual birth dates can be different and have made adjustments for that.

Chris Ho: the Tobacconist/Sweet shop was as Pat said below its now a Citroen garage, but was 248 Fylde Road not 274, its on Stanley and Normans birth certificates, with an extra residence on Normans as 45 Bardigan Street.

Google earth still shows that second house as still there, but again thank you Pat.

Finally AustinQ: we`ve been in touch with Norman and his son, unfortunately Norman has Alzheimer, and although he gave some information about other things, he has no recollection of who his father might be, but a box of paperwork was mentioned and his son is looking into that for us.

Sorry this is so long but again thank you to every one who has taken their time to help.

Any other ideas and help will be greatly appreciated.

MEYNELL VALVES LTD put this in the search box and you can see pictures of the things this firm made. There's loads of things and photos of some of the Meynall men too.

1. Early Days: 1798 - 1902


Meynell's was a family firm. The Meynell family were the owners and directors of the company for six generations.

The Meynell family are said to have come over with the Conqueror and many branches of the family are now scattered throughout these islands. The branch which founded this company came from Yarm, in Yorkshire. The founder, James Meynell, was a brassfounder, carpenter, innkeeper and undertaker. This enabled him to make the coffins, make the brass coffin furniture, arrange the funeral and then hold the wake in the parlour of his house. But in the 1790s he came to Wolverhampton, for reasons which are not known. But as the family was, as it remains, Catholic, it may be that the presence of a large Catholic community in Wolverhampton had something to do with it.

In 1798 the firm was established in Pipers Row under the name of Ready and Meynell. They were general brassfounders but also engaged in the manufacture of pumps. A press release by the company in 1970 said that the original firm made “fittings for blacksmiths, brackets and coach requirements for the richer families of that time”.
A catalogue surviving from 1852 shows a large selection of cock or taps, with which the company was always to be associated.

This is a Patent Cock.

And this is a stop cock.


But the firm's range already went beyond cocks and this part page shows plugs of various sizes and sets of weights.
But the main line was cocks to which most of the beautifully engraved pages are devoted, including this page, of which half only is shown here,

Sometime before 1866 the firm of Dixon and Vardy was absorbed into the firm and in 1866 the firm of William Fell and Son was taken over.

An undated catalogue, under the name Ready & Meynell, gives their address as Bilston Street Works, Wolverhampton, presumably because they were at that end of Pipers Row.
Four of the eighteen designs of fountain The front page of the catalogue says that they are:

"manufacturers of steam & plumbers' brass work, beer machines of every description, stationary and portable water closets, lift and force pumps, in brass, iron and copper, horticultural engines and syringes, gun metal steam-engine fittings, oil and tallow cups, syphons, steam & water gauges & glass guards, air and pet cocks, ball valves, whistles, mill brasses, iron, brass, copper, lead and composition tube, gas lamps & chandeliers, star & sun lights, for churches, chapels, and public buildings, gas fittings of every description, mediaeval & other church fittings to any design".
It winds up with "Brass Cock Makers and General Brass Founders", suggesting that cocks were still a main item of production.


Two of several types of garden engine.
One of several types of beer engine. This one has five taps but others would have had the traditional ceramic beer pulls.

An example of a tap, one of very many.


A portable water closet, with its own water reservoir, activated by pulling up the handle on the right. Presumably your servants carried it to wherever it was needed.

The firm claim that their water closets pre-dated those of Thomas Crapper.

In 1866 they moved to Montrose Street. In 1877 there is a catalogue for Meynell and Inman and in Hulley’s Directory for 1879-80 we find a reference to Meynell and Inman of Montrose Street. So at some time before 1877 Ready and Meynell must have split up and this new partnership formed. The Inman was Captain Inman, a Meynell cousin, who joined the firm in 1873, which is presumably when the name change took place. At some point Edward James Meynell joined his father in the firm. Eventually he left and started the separate firm of E. J. Meynell. He is also said to have married a barmaid from a pub in Piper's Row.

David Hill, the great-great grandson of John Deakin Ready, who he believes to be the "Son" in Ready and Son. Ready and Son are thought to have had a foundry in Bilston Street. This suggests that the company may have come into existence in 1866 when Meynell moved to Montrose Street.

[David Hill adds: John Ready was born in Litchfield in 1832 to Thomas and Mary Ready, of whom I know no more, and was recorded in the 1881 census as being a brassfounder, living at Stockwell End, Tettenhall with his wife Kate, four children, three domestic servants and a nurse. My grandmother, Beatrice Jeanette, was their fifth child, born in September of that same year.

By 1891 they were living in Boldmere Road, Sutton Coldfield and there were by now six children. John Ready died towards the end of 1897 and his death was recorded in Aston. I presume that the company continued in the hands of one or more of his four sons, namely, Gerald, Eustace, Clifford and Stanley]

The Meynell and Inman 1877 catalogue, on its title page, lists very much the same range of goods but there are now more varieties in each department. But some new items make an appearance such as a range of tools, of which half a page full is shown here.

There is also a page of whistles. These would have been widely used in factories but the firm did claim to have made the whistle which was on Stephenson's Rocket.
From a page of "closet fittings and lead traps" here are the "Patent Stench Traps".

There is also a wide variety of these "gas stoves" or gas rings as they would be called today.

A lot of houses were demolished in Fylde .Road, Preston quite a few years ago for road works etc. The Citroen car showroom is where 274 was situated and before the car showroom it was a very large bicycle shop.
Pat (Prestonian)

Are you in touch with other family members? Norman's son (and possibly Norman) is on Facebook, perhaps other relatives can provide more information.

What address is this 'Tobacconist/sweet shop'?...

Exact Birthdate of Harriett?...

Chris :)

(references)

Marriages Sep 1888 (>99%)
-----------------------------------------------------------
GEE Mary Ann Chester 8a 568
Meynell Walter Edward J Chester 8a 568


Marriages Dec 1923 (>99%)
----------------------------------------------------------
Meynall Walter E J Watts Chester 8a 730
Watts Harriett A Meynell Chester 8a 730


Deaths Dec 1926 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------
MEYNELL Walter E J 73 Wolverhampton 6b 560


Cheshire Marriage indexes for the years: 1886 to 1890

GEE Mary A MEYNELL Walter E J Chester, St Peter Cheshire West CE64/2/235

(above image on FMP)


Cheshire Marriage indexes for the years: 1923

MEYNELL Walter Edward James WATTS Harriet Ann Chester, St John Cheshire West CE13/16/10

http://www.cheshirebmd.org.uk/index.php


Edits (Walter on below)

http://blackcountryhistory.org/collections/getrecord/GB149_P_4363/

(On the death of Walter Meynell in 1926, brother Herbert became Chairman and sole Managing Director until his death in 1944. His son Cuthbert, and Walter's son Charles were appointed directors in 1927)


Births Mar 1889 (>99%)
-------------------------------------------------------------
Meynell Walter Charles E Shardlow 7b 492


1939 Register (Find My Past)

Vinery House Dunstall Avenue , Wolverhampton C.B., Staffordshire,
Walter C E Meynell 08 Feb 1889 Male Director Brass Foundry Married
Emily E Meynell 22 Feb 1887 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married

(also has below sister)

Marriages Sep 1941 (>99%)
------------------------------------------------------------------
Iliff Richard M Meynell Wolverhampton 6b 1751
Meynell Mabel C Iliff Wolverhampton 6b 1751


West Midlands Birth indexes for the years: 1892

MEYNELL Edith L Harborne Sandwell Register Office

(Daughter on 1911)

http://www.westmidlandsbmd.org.uk/index.php


Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1929

MEYNELL Ruth Ann WATTS Preston West Preston PWEST/16A/21


Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1931

MEYNELL Stanley John WATTS Preston West Preston PWEST/18A/70


Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1933

MAYNELL Norman David WATTS Preston West Preston PWEST/21A/63

http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/cgi/birthind.cgi


Worth a check in 'Search All Member trees' (top right of page here, under 'Search') Ruth is there, shared by a Member...

Have you looked for possible baptisms?

Fathers are sometimes named there even if not on a birth certificate.

Was Walter nearly 70 when he married Harriet ?