Genealogy Chat

mgnv
Gosh that sounds very complicated but I will keep your message in case I need to undertake another search. Thank you.
BUT
Why did you ask for the couples' names at 1995 marriage?
David

Go to http://www.streetmap.co.uk/ and lookup "SH 42800 82000" (without the quotes).
Now go to zoom level 4 on streetmap, and then click on the 5 x 5 grid icon to get a bigger window on the map
The arrow-tip rests on Bryngwyddon
I found Bryngwyddon just swanning around S of Llanerchymedd

In another thread, viz:
http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/genealogy_chat/thread/1366583
you wondered how I was getting these OS grid ref's.
Well, I know the SH square covers NW Wales - roughly N of Machynlleth and W of Rhyl - so all of Anglesey ans Caernavonshire, most of Merioneth, and parts of Denbigh and Montgomery.
The blue grid lines are 1 km apart.
We can also see the grid lines are numbered - it's clear we need an easting somewhere between 42 and 43 kms, or 42000 and 43000 metres. We can just eyeball this and say it's at 42800.
For the northing, it's right on grid line 82, so it's easy to say 82000 for the nothing.
So we have SH 42800 82000.

If we look up SH 42800 82000, streetmap puts the arrow point as 242800,382000 in old style OS coordinates.
You can see this reflected in the URL which has embedded in it x=242800&y=382000

The advantage of the Landranger style grid ref is you can easily indicate you're using less than full precision, i.e., less than accuracy to the nearest metre.
So we can use SH 4280 8200 for precision to within 10m, and SH 428 820 for precision to within 100m.
We can even use SH 42 82 for precision within 1 km.
OS coords require numers down to 1m be given.

Streetmap's got to put the arrow-tip somewhere, even though they don't have to tell you where (but they do).
They handle the varying precision by adding half the precision (in metres) to both the easting and the northing.

Next, how are the magic letters (like SH) arrived at.
Well, they're based on a 25 letter alphabet (the letter i is omitted):

A B C D E
F G H J K
L M N O P
Q R S T U
V W X Y Z

with a special role for the central block of letters

H
N o
S T

These cenral block are used as the first letter of the pair, and identify a 500 km x 500 km block.
Within that 500 km wide super square, the full 25 letter block is placed to give the second letter of the pair.
The S super square covers most of England - it ends just N of Kendal in the W, and just S of the R Tees in the E
The T super square covers eastern England (incl London)
The O super square covers a tiny sliver (less than 1 acre, even at low tide) of rocky foreshore under the N Yorks cliffs.
The T super square covers northern England and all of Scotland as far N as S Orkney.
The H super square covers northern Orkney, some isolated northern seastacks and skerries and Shetland.

SV contains the Scilly Isles and Bishop Rock
SW contains Land's End and Lizard Point.
The NE corner of SR contains part of Pembrokeshire.
Pembroke town is in the extreme SE of square SM. The SM/SN boundary crosses the coast 4km E of Fishguard.
The central Welsh coast is in SN.
The SH/SJ boundary crosses the coast just E of Rhyl, continues S as the SN/SO boundary and crosses the coast as the SR/SS boundary 10km W of Barry.

nyx ALSO IMPORTANT
Anglesey Record Office do not hold the original marriage register BUT they checked their 'marriage index' and the place name there is BRYNGWYDON COEDANA, not Brynguzdon as in my GRO copy. However the groom's father's occupation appears as 'Labourer' (as in my GRO copy) whereas I know for sure it was 'Shoemaker' .
David...........

IMPORTANT
The marriage copy I have was ordered from the GRO in 1986 and is written all in one hand.
If I requested a copy now would I get a photocopied image of the original?
Thanks for all your interest

David .............


from what I know, there will not be additional or different information, but there MIGHT be a mis-spelling of a word if the hand writing was hard to read.

What you have is the modern transcription of the entry in the GRO Register, which itself was a copy of the entry in the church register.

Depending on when you ordered the copy, those copies from GRO were hand transcribed. Later ones were machine copied from the Register ...........

Almost all copies have everything filled in in the same handwriting

An original would have very different handwriting for the signatures of the bride, groom and witnesses ........... and that basically is the Parish or church/chapel Register.



We have about 10 copies of our marriage certificate ........ we'd asked the Vicar if we could have 2 copies immediately as we were emigrating immediately. He decided we might need more!

He filled in most of the information on those copies the evening before our wedding, then completed with our names and those of the witnesses after we had signed the register.

Think back to your own wedding, and what happened in the Vestry.


It is very easy for a modern transcriber to make a mistake in reading 100 year old handwriting. We see it all the time on the transcripts of censuses!

mgnv
Are you suggesting that the ORIGINAL register may contain different info?
The marriage cer copy which I have indicates that the marriage was conducted by the rites of the Calvanistic Methodists and was conducted
'Bby me Robert Thomas Minister & Registrar'
David

Did you get the m.cert from the GRO?
If you did, then it's a copy of the original, and possibly mistranscribed.
If the marr took place in a C of W church, then the original will be in some archive.
I don't know what Ancestry or FMP have online.
If it took place in a non-conformist church/chapel, they weren't authorized to keep official marr rego's in 1895, so a registrar (or probably an asst/deputy/etc registrar) would need to attend with their official marr rego for the couple to sign to conclude the ceremony. You can recognize such marrs *as the registrar would sign these*, along with the couple, the witnesses and the officiating minister. These originals would be held at the Isle of Anglesey rego office at Llangefni.
*as the registrar would sign these* - every m.cert is signed by a registrar who certifies it's a true copy of something - here we're looking for a registrar's signature within the entry itself (in addition to the registrar certifying it's a true copy).

There is nothing to stop a non-conformist church from keeping its own marr rego - which would be deposited in some archive by now. Such an unofficial marr rego could well contain info that was difft from the official entry's info. This is obviously true for RC marr rego's since RC rego's would Latinize the names - so if William Jones wed Ellen Hughes, the names would show as Gulielmum Jones and Helenam Hughes, but other info could differ.

As an example, here's my wife's gg grandparents' marr:

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2DHH-47T
Name George Mccann
Event Type Marriage
Registration Quarter Apr-May-Jun
Registration Year 1838
Registration District Wigan
County Lancashire
Event Place Wigan, Lancashire, England
Volume 21
Page 448
George Mccann probably married one of the following people
Name Margaret Aspinall
Name William Barker
Name Mary Hurst

Using http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/
Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1838
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
MCCANN George ASPINALL Margaret Wigan, Register Office or Registrar Attended Wigan & Leigh ROW/1/50

Using http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/
Marriage: 23 Jun 1838 St John RC, Wigan, Lancs.
[unnamed] McCann -
[unnamed] Aspinall -
Groom's Parents: Samuelis McCann, civitatis Wigan & Brigittae
Bride's Parents: Jacobi Aspinall, [of Wigan] & Mariae
Witness: Patricio McArdal, [of Wigan]; Esther Jackson, [of Wigan]
Married by: Hen. Segrave Miss. Apos.
Notes: [Bride's and groom's names not recorded. Here their surnames are taken from
their parents]
Register: Marriages 1837 - 1840, Page 40
Source: Original register at LRO

Note - this entry gives no marital status nor residence for couple and no ocupational info for anyone.
It does give town of residence for parents and witnesses, and does give the mothers's forename.
[NB Jacobi with its various case endings is the latinized form of James]


If the marr were a C of W marr, you should see if the original's online or check the appropriate archive.
If the marr entry is signed by a registrar, then the Anglesey office holds the original - I would contact them to see if they can confirm the spelling.

District Postal addresss Telephone Fax Email Cheques payable to Registrar's website Online Ordering/ Remarks
Anglesey The Register Office, Shire Hall, Glanhwfa Road, Llangefni, Anglesey LL77 7TW 01248 751926 01248 751927 [email protected] (link sends e-mail) Superintendent Registrar Website http://www.anglesey.gov.uk/community/birth-marriage-and-death/tracing-your-family-tree/

Thank you for your long and detailed messages. When my chap was married in 1895 he was undoubtedly a Farm Labourer and this appears on the marriage cert. His father was undoubtedly alive and was actually a Shoemaker. BUT the groom was not living with his parents at the time. The father appears on the marriage cert as 'Labourer'
When he the groom died just a few years later the informant was his brother resident at a (fairly distant) address which I discovered was the address of their father - a Shoemaker.
After that discovery everything fell into place and the relationships were clarified.
I guess the minister filled out the cert and made the mistake about the groom's father's occupation.
Thank you for your interest
David
PS I think the groom was Welsh speaking and the cert was written in English

As Sylvia said, information on any official document is only as accurate as the informant who gives it and the person who records it. All such info. needs to be taken as a guide until it can be confirmed in some other way.

On my grandmother's marriage certificate her father is given as deceased. I spent quite a bit of time trying to confirm his death before I started wondering if he was actually still alive at grandma's marriage date. After a lot more research I found he had left his family to go off with another woman and, rather than admit to this, my grandmother simply told the priest her father was dead.

My father's occupation isn't quite correct on my own marriage cert. from 1963. From what I remember, at a meeting with the vicar a while before my wedding he asked me what my father did. I think I said something like "He works in the accounts department of ...............". On my marriage certificate my father's profession is "Accountant".

Maybe I ought to add a note to it so that future family historians don't get confused :-D

He may have supplied the information, but the person who filled out the marriage certificate would be the person who married them .............. whether that be the minister of a church or the Registrar in a Registry Office marriage.

And that person might not have been fluent in Welsh ............... and wrote down what he thought he heard, instead of asking how to spell it..


As to father's wrong occupation .....

........ was the father still alive at the time of the marriage? Was he still living with the family?

If the father had died or left the family when a child was young, that child might well not remember what he did.


For example ............... I was a small child during the war when my father was in Restricted Occupation. It was never talked about later, and I have absolutely no idea what he did. I do know what he did after the war, but think I took the easy way out when I married, and said my father was retired.


For what it's worth ........... I have seen certificates where the wrong name was given for a father; where a father was named and then that information corrected in the Parish Register by someone in the village who affirmed that the bride was illegitimate and father's name was wrong; father named as deceased when he was still alive, or not shown as deceased when he was.

As for occupations ............. relatively often shown as wrong, eg Ag Lab shown as Farmer; Carter shown as Carriage Owner; someone designated as Gentleman (deceased) when he was a pub owner, etc etc etc. Looks better for the in-laws!!!


You did not have to provide evidence to prove any statement made on a marriage certificate .......... not even whether you were single, divorced or widowed. I didn't even have to do that in the late 1960s! I don't know about now

Marriages broke down then just as often as now, but divorce was all but impossible for anyone except the very wealthy. Consequently there are many common-law relationships because one partner (or both) was still married to someone else. Alternatively, they married bigamously, stating sometimes they were single, others saying "widow(ed)".

Sylia
On further reflection -surely a bloke would not get the occupation of his father wrong, which suggests someone else must definitely have supplied the info on the marriage cert.
David

Sylvia
But I had assumed he supplied the information verbally..............Interestingly the occupation of his father is incorrect on the cert. which makes me wonder .......Did the bride to be supply the info?.......... It caused me great difficulty but now solved
David

But he didn't write the marriage certificate!!!!

Bryn gwyddon is certainly in the right area, but why should it be misspelt Bryguzdon?
I think my chap was Welsh speaking
David

http://newspapers.library.wales/

(anything in Welsh Newspapers online)

Chris :)

(1878 example Edmund Roberts, farmer, Bryn- gwyddon, Coedana)

http://newspapers.library.wales/view/4515825/4515832/65/

Sure it's not Bryn Gwyddon? if it was written by someone who didn't speak Welsh lol..

The marriage took place at LLanerchymedd,Anglesey
In 1891 the groom was away from home in Caernarvonshire
He died in 1901 in Coedana parish
David

What's the registration district

Have you found either party on the 1891 and 1901 census

Residence named in 1895 marriage cert. 'Brynguzdon Coedana' The word Brynguzdon is very clearly written. Cannot find it anywhere. I have searched through every household in Coedana parish in 1891 and 1901 census but no luck.
Please can anyone help?
David