Profile | Posted by | Options | Post Date |
|
Gillian
|
Report
|
28 Jan 2018 17:46 |
It is possible that an ancestor of mine committed suicide and I'm enquiring if there are specific records that deal with such deaths. His name is James Carroll born in 1863 in Lancashire. He is on the 1901 Census as a Theatrical Comedian, a boarder at 139 Princes Street, Swindon. It has been suggested that he died in Scotland and possibly two children were taken in by Dr Barnado's. I know this is a long shot, but any help would be greatly appreciated.
Many thanks
Gill
|
|
Shirley~I,m getting the hang of it
|
Report
|
28 Jan 2018 17:50 |
Don't think there's a specific list His death cert will give details of cause of death
If you think he died in Scotland then you need Scotlands People website
What were the names of the children . Have you found them on later census
|
|
patchem
|
Report
|
28 Jan 2018 18:52 |
A tree on Ancestry has him dying in Liverpool in 1904 and buried at Ford Cemetery.
Worth investigating further, or have you dismissed it?
It also gives his birth as 9th June 1862 Liverpool, not 1863 Lancashire.
|
|
patchem
|
Report
|
28 Jan 2018 19:05 |
There is an internment on December 26 1904 of a James Carroll, address Royal Infirmary, age 41, in grave 430. If born in June 1862 he would have been 42, but the age could be wrong from the informant or the Ancestry tree is wrong.
|
|
Shirley~I,m getting the hang of it
|
Report
|
28 Jan 2018 19:18 |
There is marriage cert for him on ancestry 1st Feb 1888 Glasgow Occ comedian. Father James Carroll carriage smith journeyman mother Ann Caffery
Bride. ??? Daisy Crowe. Occ actress Father Charles Henry Crowe sub conductor commissionaire dept. Mother Louisa. Can't read surmanes but was married twice poss maiden name Duncan
Same tree has his death as 1904
Edit from a tree on ancestry
James Carroll
Birth: 9 Jun 1862 - England Death: Dec 1904 - Liverpool, Lancashire, England Spouse: Kathleen Elizabeth Daisy Crowe
|
|
ArgyllGran
|
Report
|
28 Jan 2018 19:32 |
Per the tree, this is his marriage:
CARROLL JAMES CROWE KATHLEEN ELIZAB[ETH DAISY ] 1888 644/12 58 Gorbals
Here they are with a child in 1891. .
James Carroll in the 1891 England Census Name: James Carroll Gender: Male Age: 28 Relationship: Son-in-law Birth Year: 1863 Spouse: Daisy K Carroll Child: Ivy K Carroll Birth Place: Liverpool, Lancashire, England Civil Parish: St Pancras Ecclesiastical parish: St Matthew Residence Place: London, St Pancras, London, England Registration district: Pancras Sub registration district: Regent ED, Institution or Vessel: 8 Neighbors: View others on page Piece: 116 Folio: 206 Household Members: Name Age Charles H Crowe 57 Louisa Crowe 57 Charles P Crowe 31 Daisy K Carroll 23 - actress, born Karsadiee, India Ivy K Carroll 9 Months James Carroll 28 Helen Caghill 49 Rose Caghill 18 Maria Masters 73
In 1901, Daisy is calling herself Norris:
Daisy Norris in the 1901 England Census Name: Daisy Norris [Daisy Crowe] Age: 33 Estimated birth year: abt 1868 Relation to Head: Head Gender: Female Mother: Louisa Crowe Birth Place: India Civil Parish: West Derby Ecclesiastical parish: West Derby St John the Baptist County/Island: Lancashire Country: England Street address: Occupation: Condition as to marriage: Education: Employment status: View image Registration district: West Derby Sub-registration district: West Derby, Eastern ED, institution, or vessel: 19 Neighbors: View others on page Piece: 3500 Folio: 111 Page Number: 14 Household schedule number: 77 Household Members: Name Age Daisy Norris 33 - married Ivy Norris 10 Moya Norris 4 - Scotland Louisa Norris 2 - London Francis Norris 8/12 - Liverpool Louisa Crowe 68
|
|
ArgyllGran
|
Report
|
28 Jan 2018 19:39 |
Ivy's marriage:
Marriages Sep 1910 (>99%) Carroll Ivy K W.Ham 4a 767 Shaw Stanley F W.Ham 4a 767
|
|
ArgyllGran
|
Report
|
28 Jan 2018 19:54 |
Probably Moya's birth:
CARROLL EDINA MADGE MOY[A] F 1897 685/2 174 St Andrew (Edinburgh)
Madge Edna Carroll in the 1911 England Census Name: Madge Edna Carroll Age in 1911: 14 Estimated birth year: abt 1897 Relation to Head: Patient Gender: Female Birth Place: Edinburgh Civil Parish: Low Leyton County/Island: Essex Country: England Street address: West Ham Union Infirmary, Whipps Cross Road, Leytonstone N E Registration district: West Ham Registration District Number: 188 Sub-registration district: North Leyton ED, institution, or vessel: 41-47 Piece: 9674
No sign of Barnardo's so far, though haven't found Francis and Louisa yet.
|
|
ArgyllGran
|
Report
|
28 Jan 2018 19:55 |
Yes, here we are - this will be Louisa in 1911:
Louisa Patricia Daisy Carroll in the 1911 England Census Name: Louisa Patricia Daisy Carroll Age in 1911: 12 Estimated birth year: abt 1899 Relation to Head: Inmate Gender: Female Birth Place: Canning Town, London, England Civil Parish: Ilford County/Island: Essex Country: England Street address: Dr Barnardo's Girls Village Homes, Barkingside, Ilford, Essex Occupation: school Registration district: Romford Registration District Number: 191 Sub-registration district: Ilford ED, institution, or vessel: 61-63 Household schedule number: 12 Piece: 9910
Louisa Patricia Daisy Carroll in the London, England, Church of England Births and Baptisms, 1813-1916 Name: Louisa Patricia Daisy Carroll Gender: Female Record Type: Baptism Baptism Date: 8 Jan 1899 Baptism Place: Bow Common St Paul, Tower Hamlets, England Father: James Carroll Mother: Kathleen Elizabeth Daisy Carroll Register Type: Parish Registers
|
|
ArgyllGran
|
Report
|
28 Jan 2018 19:59 |
Miss Louisa P Carroll in the UK, Outward Passenger Lists, 1890-1960 Name: Miss Louisa P Carroll Gender: Female Age: 26 Birth Date: abt 1899 Departure Date: 18 Jun 1925 Port of Departure: London, England Destination Port: Sydney, Australia Ship Name: Themistocles Shipping line: The Aberdeen Line Official Number: 129349 Master: N M Jermyn
Travelling with others (all domestics) from Dr Barnardo's Homes, Barking Side.
|
|
ArgyllGran
|
Report
|
28 Jan 2018 20:03 |
Louisa Patricia Daisy Carroll in the Sydney, Australia, Anglican Parish Registers, 1814-2011 Name: Louisa Patricia Daisy Carroll Gender: Female Marriage Age: 28 Event Type: Marriage Birth Date: abt 1902 Marriage Date: 17 Apr 1930 Marriage Place: Sydney, New South Wales, Australia Father: James Carroll, deceased, actor Mother: Kathleen Daisy Carroll Spouse: Wilfred George Angus Eckersley
Louisa Patricia Daisy Eckersley in the Australia and New Zealand, Find A Grave Index, 1800s-Current Name: Louisa Patricia Daisy Eckersley Death Date: 14 Dec 1938 Cemetery: Lutwyche Cemetery Burial or Cremation Place: Brisbane, Brisbane City, Queensland, Australia Has Bio?: N
|
|
ArgyllGran
|
Report
|
28 Jan 2018 20:09 |
Re Francis -
CARROLL, FRANCIS JAMES mms CROWE GRO Reference: 1900 S Quarter in WEST DERBY Volume 08B Page 634
Long shot re his death ???
Francis James Carroll in the New South Wales, Australia, Registers of Coroners' Inquests, 1821-1937 Name: Francis James Carroll Birth Year: abt 1896 Birth Place: London, England Death Year: Abt 1921 Death Place: Darling Harbour Inquest Date: 3 Nov 1921 Inquest Place: City Coroner's Court Age: 25
Cause of death: Asphyxia from drowning, wilfully caused by jumping overboard from SS Berrima
F J Carroll in the New South Wales, Australia, Unassisted Immigrant Passenger Lists, 1826-1922 Name: F J Carroll Estimated birth year: abt 1900 Age: 21 Port of Departure: Melbourne Port of Arrival: Sydney, New South Wales Voyage Arrival Date: 22 Oct 1921 Vessel Name: Berrima Origin Location: Liverpool
He was a fireman on the ship's crew.
Australia Death Index, 1787-1985 View Record Name Francis J Carroll Death Date 1921 Death Place New South Wales Father's Name James Mother's Name Daisy C Registration Year 1921 Registration Place Sydney New South Wales Registration Number 15581
|
|
Chris Ho :)
|
Report
|
28 Jan 2018 21:56 |
Baptism: 29 Dec 1897 St Augustine, Everton, Lancashire, England Edina Madge Moya Carroll - [Child] of James Carroll & Daisy Abode: 17 Rupert Hill Occupation: Comedian Baptised by: G W Williams Register: Baptisms 1896 - 1941, Page 38, Entry 301 Source: LDS Film 1656013
http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/Search/indexp.html
Chris :)
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/search?adv=y
(above has Francis Carroll)
http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/birthsearch.php
(if anything Liverpool on above)
Edits (also adds below)
http://www.cheshirebmd.org.uk/index.php
Cheshire Marriage indexes for the years: 1856 to 1860
CARROLL James CAFFREY Ann Birkenhead, Civil Marriage or Registrar Attended
Marriages Mar 1857 (>99%) ------------------------------------------ Caffrey Ann Wirral 8a 549 Carroll James Wirral 8a 549
Birth CARROLL, JAMES (CAFFREY) GRO Reference: 1862 S Quarter in LIVERPOOL Volume 08B Page 183
Birth CARROLL, EMMA (CAFREY) GRO Reference: 1864 D Quarter in LIVERPOOL Volume 08B Page 198
1871 (Find My Past) Ireland James Carroll Head - Male 38 (Coach Fitter) 1833 - Ireland Ann Carroll Wife - Female 30 1841 - Lancashire, England John Carroll Son - Male 14 1857 - Lancashire, England Elizabeth A Carroll Daughter - Female 11 1860 - Lancashire, England James Carroll Son - Male 9 1862 - Lancashire, England Emma Carroll Daughter - Female 7 1864 - Lancashire, England Isabella Carroll Daughter - Female 3 1868 Jenkinson Street, Everton, West Derby, Lancashire
|
|
Gillian
|
Report
|
28 Jan 2018 22:30 |
Wow! I can't thank you all enough for the help you have given me. I'm going to need some time to go through all the information and see what I can marry up with what I already have. Once again many thanks. I will let you know how I get on.
Gill
|
|
ArgyllGran
|
Report
|
28 Jan 2018 23:32 |
The tree on Ancestry says this is Moya's marriage (don't know where the name Horton / Herton comes from):
Madge M Horton in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Marriage Index, 1916-2005 Name: Madge M Horton Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1918 Registration district: Howden Inferred County: Yorkshire East Riding Spouse: Arthur Otter Volume Number: 9d Page Number: 161
But this birth of a child looks as if the marriage is the wrong one - unless she was claiming Horton was her maiden name;
Births Dec 1919 Otter Samuel A Horton Howden 9d 5285/5 Otter Samuel O Horton Howden 9d 142
However, she certainly seems to have died as Otter, and in Yorkshire:
Edina M M Otter in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1916-2007 Name: Edina M M Otter Death Age: 63 Birth Date: abt 1897 Registration Date: Mar 1960 Registration district: Don Valley Inferred County: Yorkshire West Riding Volume: 2b Page: 528
EDIT:
Samuel Arthur Otter in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1916-2007 Name: Samuel Arthur Otter Death Age: 73 Birth Date: 27 Oct 1919 Registration Date: Jun 1993 Registration district: Doncaster Inferred County: South Yorkshire Register Number: A40D District and Subdistrict: 0421A Entry Number: 218
|
|
ArgyllGran
|
Report
|
29 Jan 2018 10:45 |
An old thread of Gill's, about Moya - but not solving the Horton question:
https://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/genealogy_chat/thread/918010
And a family tree listing two more Carroll children:
http://www.peterlg.co.uk/ghtout/gp4876.html
|
|
Gillian
|
Report
|
29 Jan 2018 16:27 |
Thank you ArgyllGran. My next request was going to be about how I can find out why Edina Madge Moya Carroll had became Madge Moya Horton by the time she married my grandfather in 1918. I know I'm not very experienced regarding family history, but I think I've tried every avenue and can only assume that it's possible James Carroll's wife Daisy lived with Walter at some point. There is now the added complication that Daisy was also known as Norris and Moya has Norris as her surname in the 1901 Census. An interesting point is that Madge Moya is reputed to have spent time with a circus troupe known as the Dezmonti Trio, one of them being Walter Horton. I have been told she travelled to America with Walter and others, but have no idea when that was. Hope I haven't bored you with all this and thanks again for your help. Gill
|
|
Chris Ho :)
|
Report
|
29 Jan 2018 18:01 |
Dezmonti name comes up on google search, also Newspapers.
(very often with Comedians, Actors, Theatrical Artists etc. they have 'stage names' making them a bit hard to trace, lol, and they don't always stick to same!)
Chris :)
Edits (hold on, lol, who are below?)
13 March 1897 - The Era - London, London, England
PRESENTATION - A handsome massive silver cup was presented to Edina Moya Norris, daughter of Mr James Norris and Daisy Delmont, on the finish of the pantomime, Theatre Royal, Edinburgh, by Mr. J.W. Bell, of the Black Bull, Edinburgh.
21 May 1892 - The Era - London, London, England
THE LONDON MUSIC HALLS. MARLOW'S, BOW. Out of the beaten track, too, is the entertainment tendered by Mr James Norris and Miss Daisy Delmont. Daisy is fair to look upon, is possessed of a good voice...
09 November 1895 - London and Provincial Entr'acte - London, London
PECKHAM VARIETIES, SOUTHAMPTON STREET. James Norris and Daisy Delmont, variety artists;
|
|
Gillian
|
Report
|
29 Jan 2018 18:15 |
Thank you Chris, but who on earth are Mr James Norris and Daisy Delmont? Nom de plumes for her parents, Mr James Carroll and Kathleen Elizabeth Daisy Carroll nee Crowe perhaps?
|
|
Chris Ho :)
|
Report
|
29 Jan 2018 18:19 |
(well they seem to be in right places looking at some info. posted earlier!, perhaps better add them to your list, lol)
Chris :)
10 February 1900 - The Era - London, London, England
Death CROWE - Feb 5th, at 17, Radclyffe-road, Upton-park, Charles Henry Crowe, the beloved father of Mrs James Norris (Miss Daisy Delmont) and brother of the late Gwyllym Crowe. Deeply mourned by his sorrowing wife, children, and grandchildren. Aged sixty-six.
03 March 1894 - The Era - London, London, England
Birth NORRIS - On Thursday, Feb. 22nd, the wife of Mr James Norris (Miss Daisy Delmont), of a son, both doing well.
Birth CARROLL, BERTIE GWYLLYM (CROWE) GRO Reference: 1894 M Quarter in PANCRAS Volume 01B Page 25
All London, England, Church of England Births and Baptisms, 1813-1916 (Ancestry)
Bertie Gwyllym Carroll 25 Mar 1894 (Born Feb. 22nd) St Pancras St James Camden James, (occ. Comedian) Kathleen Elizabeth Daisy (Abode, 17, Harrington Street)
Burial Register summary
Crowe Charles Henry Burial date 10 February 1900 Location Newham
https://www.deceasedonline.com/
Deaths Mar 1900 (>99%) ---------------------------------------------------------- Crowe Charles Henry 66 W. Ham 4a 144
17 March 1894 - North Wales Chronicle - Bangor, Gwynedd, Wales
DEATH OF MR GWYLLM CROW, ; Many of our readers heard with deep regret of the sudden death from heart disease of Mr Gwyllym Crowe, who was the musical caterer at the Pier Company's concerts last season. Mt Crowe died on Thursday, in last week,...
http://newspapers.library.wales/
(also in above, plus other articles) (see also Daisy Delmont!)
|