Genealogy Chat

Thank you again again, ArgyllGran.

I found this reference in the National Archives:
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C10244231
which I imagine is probably the basis for the Hague lists.

So it looks as if this is the point at which the trail goes cold. At least I have a "most likely" identification for the ship.

Does that list of Desirade's arrivals and departures give the name of the owner company?

If so, it might be worth asking if they have archived passenger lists.

That convoyweb website only allows a certain number of searches - and I've had all I'm allowed!

EDIT:

She was managed by Clan Line 1940-45, but owned by Chargeurs Reunis, Havre.
She was scrapped in 1950.:
http://www.theshipslist.com/ships/descriptions/ShipsD.shtml

History of Chargeurs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chargeurs
Present website: http://www.chargeurs.fr/en/content/contact

I don't get the impression that contacting them would be any use! - http://www.chargeurs.fr/en/content/contact


Clan Line no longer exists: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_Line
There seem to be crew lists in existence, but not passenger lists.

Ah! Thanks again, ArgyllGran, silly me. I was trying to be too clever. I was told (see above) that Clyde was a catch all for Glasgow and two other places so entered Glasgow ...

If that's the boat he was on, and I agree it looks the most probable, then he travelled "the pretty way", Freetown not being all that close to the Argentine! I suppose that the ship joined the convoy at Freetown.

Now I have the ship, I wonder whether there is a list of passengers anywhere.

From the link you posted first:

http://www.convoyweb.org.uk/

click on "Arrivals/departures " in the menu on the left hand side.

Then "Search ports" on the left hand menu.
Then enter "Clyde" August 2nd 1943


I was thinking the six ships shown were all in one convoy - now I think the first five were all in one convoy, and "Desirade" was part of another convoy, although seems to have shed the rest of the convoy at some point and arrived in the Clyde alone.

Click on Desirade's name to see a list of her arrivals and departures.
The other five seem to be oil tankers or cargo ships, but Desrirade was a passenger ship.

You're way ahead of me ArgyllGran! Please can you lead me through your steps to find that sailing? It looks to me as if this must be the convoy:
http://www.convoyweb.org.uk/sl/index.html?sl133.htm~slmain
but I stumbled across it rather than being able to find it by logical searching!
I've had a look on Ancestry but drawn a blank so far, the only arrivals listed for Desirade appear to be Cardiff in February and Liverpool in October.

Anyone know places to search where the records might be more complete?

What an interesting site!

Of the six ships in the relevant convoy, the "Desirade" appears to be a passenger ship.
Ancestry has passenger lists for that ship from other dates in 1943.

She seems to have left Glasgow again in time to arrive in New York on 10 Sept 1943.
And then left New York again in time to reach Liverpool on 13 Oct 1943.

I've just heard from Heritage Hub:

"Unfortunately during the war no details were printed of ship arrivals and departures. Clyde Ports was a catch all for Greenock, Gourock and Glasgow. I can only suggest looking at http://www.convoyweb.org.uk/ which might help to pinpoint a possible convoy that he arrived in."

So I'll have a look there - it's a site I wasn't aware of so it will be interesting to see what there is!

Yes, the shipping records will be the names of ships almost certainly, but given the name of a ship I may be able to find passenger records elsewhere which I have so far failed to find by a search by name. I can then browse the records and see what I can find ...

It's very kind of you to offer a "personal visit", I live in France and popping over to visit the archives is not really an option!

I'll let you know what they have to say.

Before I retired I used to work in Greenock, in offices which backed on to Cathcart Street, and the James Watt (under a different name) was our "local"!!

I suspect that the shipping archives will be names of ships, but not their crews or passengers, particularly as it was wartime, but if you get no results from writing, or from their online archives, and think a personal visit might be more fruitful, let me know.

I go across to Greenock occasionally (10 minutes on the ferry) and the Hub sounds like a good place to visit.

Thank you for looking out for me, ArgyllGran!
Yes, I had spotted that and have in fact written to Inverclyde Heritage Hub

Did you notice this, Keith?

https://www.inverclyde.gov.uk/community-life-and-leisure/museum

Perhaps the Inverclyde Heritage Hub is where you should be inquiring at present.
(Though I dare say the Museum may forward your enquiry to them.)

I've now discovered that there are (should be?) archives of Greenock Telegraph and Clyde Shipping Gazette at the McLean Museum in Greenock. I've written to them.
Thank you again, Andysmum, for the suggestion.

Thank you very much for following up and providing that link.

In the list of periodicals the Greenock Telegraph and Clyde Shipping Gazette states, in brackets after the name, 1857-1909. It changed its name at some point but it doesn't seem to be listed under the name "Clyde Shipping Gazette".

It seems that the search you did picks up articles (or perhaps pages?) with clyde AND shipping AND gazette in them, so the results for the relevant dates in August include eg Sunderland Daily Echo and Shipping Gazette, Birmingham Daily Gazette, and Daily Record.

Putting the search term in quotes: "clyde shipping gazette", ie searching for the phrase, returns zero results.

I'm not sure where you were looking, but they have archives from 1700 or so up to about 2000, and the Clyde Shipping News back to the early 1800's.

Here's the link for the 1940's

https://tinyurl.com/yax668ra

Mmmm.... Tried the British Newspaper Archive and wondered why all my searches were coming up "nothing found" - turns out they only have archives to 1909. Back to the drawing board!

Ah, now there's an idea, thank you very much Andysmum!

You need "The Greenock Telegraph and Clyde Shipping Gazette".

If you look in The National Newspaper Archive there are lots covering the war years, but whether you'll find the info you are looking for is another matter. Good luck! :-)

Yes, I tried googling clyde ports and was not much wiser thereafter. The information I found was more about the situation today than anything historical. If you have had more success I'd be delighted to hear ...

I think that it may well be the "war years" issue, maybe even a troop ship or some such. But in the interests of leaving no stone unturned , I thought I'd ask. I know there are a few other repositories around with sailing information and maybe there might be a clue in one of them ...

There is an inward record for 1939 and then an outward for may 1945

It may be that the sailings for the war years may not have been kept or not released

Have you tried googling 'Clyde ports'?