Genealogy Chat

naturalization means they became citizens . with all the rights of the country they were living in

they renounced their birth country and pledged allegiance to the laws and sovereignty of the new country

Oh just a baby, that's sad.

Thank you Shirley, that's really interesting! What exactly does Naturalisation mean? I'm just wondering about it, in case this Herbert Napier does turn out to be a brother. The 1911 census said he had been naturalised 16 years previous - does that mean there would be a record of it?

My paternal grandfather was German

He was born c1870

He was with his parents and siblings on the 1891 census in Bradford in Yorkshire

Both he and a brother anglicized their surnames and joined the British army and said they were born in Bradford . Not true , there was a brother born though in Bradford in 1889

So grandfather was still in the army in 1902 and stationed in Woolwich London when he met and married grandmother using his assumed name

The marriage cert though does give his fathers correct name so it was able to find the family previously

What I haven't been able to find is where they were born as both the 1891 and 1901 census only say Germany and they never took naturalization

I did inquire at The National Archives Kew which was where I got the army records
They said without any further info it's not possible to get any other records

I was lucky in finding grandfathers army records in that they were filed alphabetically so his brothers record was there too next to his

I viewed the originals too which was great and they made copies for me

His brother completely anglicized his name even his Christian name from Karl to Charles


There's no official record their name changes they just did it !!

You can be known by any name you want as long as it's not for illegal purposes

Death of the Napier/Newson child born 1917 Croydon (birth posted on page 1 by Sylvia) ??

Annie Napier
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1916-2007
Name: Annie Napier
Death Age: 0
Birth Date: abt 1917
Registration Date: Dec 1917
Registration district: Croydon
Inferred County: Surrey
Volume: 2a
Page: 408

How odd, why would they amend the register ten years later i wonder...

Oh I've just seen your above message about the alteration of birth date as well! Sorry, will have another look!

Hello, yes they're the children that I had logged, and Margery's death record.
On Edwards death record and the register entry it does have 1882 as birth date Simon not sure about Edmund but definitely worth investigating!

My dad was definitely told by uncles and aunts that their grandparents were German, rather than just living over there for a bit too x

This looks like Margery's death (same birth date as on the 1939 register):-

First name(s) Margery Frances
Last name Napier
Gender Female
Birth day 17
Birth month 5
Birth year 1897
Age -
Death quarter 1
Death year 1979
District Haringey
County London
Volume 12
Page 2148
Country England
Record set England & Wales Deaths 1837-2007

The informant may have more information about the family.

Kath. x

Looking at the image of the 1939 register, the same writing that has altered the name of birth from 1886 to 1882, further along the line above his occupation is written some letters and numbers (think they are NR37??) and then a date which looks like 25 - 4 - 49. Not sure if this is when the alteration to the date of birth was made, and I don't know what the letters and numbers mean.

Kath. x

Are these the births of your great-grandfather's children? :-

Napier Alan F 1943
Napier Anthony R 1932
Napier Doris 1926 .
Napier Eric R 1929 .
Napier Gladys M 1936
Napier James E 1924
Napier John A 1927 .
Napier Maurice G 1933

If they are, I was checking on deaths to match these births and John A. Napier born 1927 seems to have died in 2002 and his middle name was Arthur. If this is right then maybe Edmund and Edward are one and the same and he gave one of his sons the middle name Arthur after his father. Just a thought, and something to research.

Kath. x

The Herbert Napier you found in the 1911 census is possibly on the 1901 census as Herbert C. Napier, age 17 born in Gottingen, Germany.

His father is Arthur S. Napier, a professor of English Language and Literature at Oxford University.

Interestingly there is also a son called Edmund born 1888 in Oxford. The names Edmund and Edward were often interchangeable in the 19th and early 20th century.

Could he be a possibility for "your" Edward?

The mother and father in this family were both born in Cheshire, and the children born in Germany both have British Subjects in brackets after their place of birth (perhaps the father was lecturing over there as apparently Gottingen is well known for it's university).

This is the birth of this Edmund (just in case he turns out to be the one):-

First name(s) EDMUND
Last name NAPIER
Birth year 1888
Birth quarter 3
Registration month -
Mother's maiden name Hervey
District Headington
County Oxfordshire
Country England
Volume 3A
Page 751
Record set England & Wales Births 1837-2006
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records

and the marriage of his parents:-

First name(s) Arthur Samson
Last name Napier
Marriage quarter 3
Marriage year 1879
Registration month -

MarriageFinder ™

Arthur Samson Napier married one of these people

>>>>>Mary Ferrior Hervey,<<<<< Margaret Dooley

District Macclesfield
District number -
County Cheshire
Country England
Volume 8A
Volume as transcribed 8A
Page number 203
Record set England & Wales Marriages 1837-2005

Kath. x

A broad search of the census with the word 'Germany' in it has revealed one Herbert Napier, born 1884 and listed with a birth place of Germany. He is listed as a boarder on the record and says has been nationalised for 16 years (1911) census.

Another seemingly dead though!

Thank you for this information! I certainly will update as soon as the certificates arrive. I'm not holding out much hope now but you never know.

You are right Louise. We don't know for definite that the Edward married to Annie is "your" Edward - a lot of us just go on hunches which often, but by no means always, turn out to be right.

When you get the marriage certificates, look to see if the father's name is the same on both and have a look at the occupations for the groom and the groom's father. The occupations may not be the same on both certificates but they might be.

Let us know when the certificates arrive - even addresses from them can help.

Kath. x

No, marriage certificates do not give date of birth. They should give an age although the really early ones often just say 'full age' or 'minor' indicating whether or not the couple needed parental consent to marry.
The value of certificates can vary in terms of helping research. I'm afraid not every one was truthful, so ages vary, fathers can have their occupation made up to be more important eg. labourer to farmer. Father could be reported as deceased, when in fact he is very much alive, although not asked if his underage daughter. can marry.
He might not be recorded as deceased, but have died years previous.
.......or he could be entirely fictional and just exist in 'name on the paper' only to save face rather one of the couple admit to being illegitimate.

So yes certificates are necessary, but seek further sources if possible to back up information.

Will the marriage certificated have their date of births on it? So far, the marriage to Annie is a guess for us isnt it (although a good one) because we can't see that he is definitely our Edward... is that correct?

Thank you both, I have added Margery's siblings and parents details to my tree and have a lot of new matches so I've pinged off a few messages and hope someone can give me some more information!

In the meantime I have ordered both of the marriage certificates, that was a great find. Talking to my dad, he's under the impression that Edward was most likely born in London but under his previous name, and it was his parents that came over here originally.

It's interesting that you showed the names of those living with Annie, I researched one of the gruebaums and the mother's maiden name was Geis - very German. Additionally there was an Israel Geis born in London in 1882 but sure it's coincidence as there is also a death record in that name.. But its very interesting all the same to research all this and find all these 'almost' links!

I really appreciate all your help so far, been incredibly useful for a novice like me x

Just to add to Kath's post ............


I did look at Public Family Trees on ancestry to see if there was one for Margery ..... found only one that went as far as the 1911 Census, and "Unknown Spouse".

I was hoping to get a hint that we could research deeply and get some documentation.

Have you thought of trying to research members of Margery's family and researching up to the present day, because some of Margery's family may have been told Edward's real name. It's a long shot but anything is worth trying.

There are several people on Genes who have both Margery and her sister Crystal (from the 1911 census) in their trees.

Click on "search" top right of screen and then click on "search all member trees". Put in Margery's details and you will find the people who have her in their tree. You can then click on "find out more" and send them a message.

EDIT - I think Sylvia's thoughts on Edward being married already to Annie Newson is quite likely to be correct.

Kath. x

If your Edward was born in 1882-1886, then it would not be unusual for him to have been married before 1924, especially with WW1 on ........ there were lots of war-time romances and marriages.

The marriage certificate to Margery might say whether Edward was Bachelor, or Widower ....... if he told the truth.

Divorces were all but impossible for ordinary folk to get. There were very restricted reasons, and it was extremely expensive. So many couples who found that marriage was not working were limited to either sticking it out together, or separating and calling themselves Widow or Widower.

I have always thought that as many marriages broke down back then as break down today.