Genealogy Chat

This is a basic question, so apologies if there have been other threads as I haven't looked through them all.

Say a man dies without a will and leaves a widow behind, how do they calculate the amount shown in the probate figure on websites? That is, do they show the value of half of any property and monies, assuming the other half is his wife's?

If a house or car was in his wife's name only, does half the value of that get included in his estate for the probate figure too or is it not included at all?

Thanks as this has puzzled me for a while.

If there isn't a Will, there can't be Probate


Probate is the judicial process whereby a will is "proved" in a court of law and accepted as a valid public document that is the true last testament of the deceased, or whereby the estate is settled ..etc

Info re intestacy in England - (I'm assuming England - you haven't specified where the death took place) -

https://www.gov.uk/inherits-someone-dies-without-will


Rules in Scotland:

https://www2.gov.scot/Publications/2008/02/26152921/5

Briefly, only assets belonging to the deceased person are counted.
Subsequent division of those assets among any family members has nothing to do with the stated amount of the deceased person's estate.
If there's no Will, division of assets follows the rules per the links given above.


If house or car is owned by the spouse, it's not part of the deceased person's estate.

Thank you EH and AG. The death was in England and was a relative who left no will and the probate records show an amount of money. I know the rules of inheritance, it was just what monies were included in the probate figure I wasn't sure about. It seems then that if most assets for a married couple are in the name of the spouse who dies, they are included in their estate, regardless of whether they were a shared purchase?

Yes, I think so , if the asset was legally in the sole name of the deceased person .

But it might depend on whether or not the spouse could show that he/she had paid part of the cost of the asset (if that's what you mean by "shared purchase")..

You'd be better asking a solicitor (or Citizens' Advice) to be sure. It's a very complicated area.


ADDED:

Possibly helpful?
https://www.co-oplegalservices.co.uk/media-centre/articles-may-aug-2018/what-type-of-assets-are-subject-to-probate/

As ArgyllGran states, it can be very complicated.

My father died without leaving a Will.
Prior to that, he or Mum would sometimes buy a £1 Premium Bond, when they drew their pension in cash at the Post Office.
To my parents, these bonds were jointly owned, but after Dad died it all had to be calculated depending on who had actually purchased which bonds.

Thanks for that link AG which was very interesting as regards property. It seems that if you jointly own a property it doesn't go into your estate either as it passes straight to the other owner. If you are tenants in common (which we are) then I imagine half the property value would go into the deceased's estate.

That was interesting too Gwyn and set me thinking as OH's name is on the bills for our bigger items like white goods, tv even though we often share the cost. Also once things are out of warranty, we destroy the bills and apparently the proof of ownership at the same time!

What it has confirmed though is that the probate figures are not really much of an indication of true wealth if married, jointly owned property is involved or the couple were tenants in common! You could think the widow or widower hadn't been left much to live on looking at the probate figures, but not realise any property or deceased's half of the property wasn't included in the figures and had already passed to them.

Thanks for your help both. :-)

So far as I know, over here anything in which the spouse is either joint owner or the stated beneficiary, eg an insurance policy, is not included in the deceased's assets ....... they go straight to the survivor.

We have one insurance policy for quite a lot of money in which OH and I are stated as first beneficiary and our daughter is named as the beneficiary of the survivor of us ............... that means that when the last of us dies, the whole lot of money goes to her, without being included in our wills or in assets.

The original intent of that policy was so that our daughter would cash in hand to pay any death duties without having to sell something valuable or borrow money in a hurry .........we don't have death duties even now, but there was talk about 35 or years ago that the Federal government might be bringing it in. So she will actually get a lump sum in addition to what else is left to her in our wills.

Would that be the same in the UK?

Sylvia -
From info in the link above, it sounds "likely" that is the case:

"3. Life Insurance Policies
If the deceased had a life insurance policy and had nominated someone to benefit from this after their death, then a Grant of Probate may not be required. However, if they had not nominated a person to benefit from the pay out, it is likely that the policy will the form part of the Estate and therefore will require a Grant of Probate."


But ask a solicitor!

AG .............

Our wills were written by an Estate Lawyer, and so it is what happens here. I just wondered if the same would apply in the UK.

We each have a life insurance policy in which we are each other's beneficiary, those pay directly to the survivor, and then would be included in his/her estate when the will is re-written (if there is anything left, of course :-D )

I'm not sure that an insurance policy could be written here without a beneficiary being name, unless of course the beneficiary had pre-deceased the policy owner and he/she had not amended it.