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ArgyllGran
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27 May 2021 15:06 |
???? Annie / Elizabeth ??
MACEY, ANN ELIZABETH mmn HARRIS GRO Reference: 1880 S Quarter in HACKNEY Volume 01B Page 497
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BrianW
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26 May 2021 19:48 |
Newington would be Stoke Newington. Kingsland is an adjacent area or sub-district. My father was born in Stoke Newington. Jane 1871, my gran, is definitely Macey and I have her birth cert. It was issued in 1936 and I imagine she sent for it so as to apply for her State pension.
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ArgyllGran
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26 May 2021 18:31 |
So, the possible birth records of the possble adopted daughters are:
MACEY, ADA - GRO Reference: 1874 D Quarter in HACKNEY Volume 01B Page 470
MACEY, ELIZA ESTHER mmn COLLETT GRO Reference: 1878 J Quarter in HACKNEY Volume 01B Page 481
MACEY, JANE mmn CRAWLEY GRO Reference: 1871 D Quarter in HACKNEY Volume 01B Page 418
BUT we don't know if any of those are actually the births of the "Harris" girls (EDIT: - apart from Jane) .
Still haven't found a possible birth for Elizabeth Harris born c1848-9 in Newington (per 1861 census) or Kingsland (per 1851 ).
I don't see any Macey/Collett (or other spelling) marriage, nor a Macey/Crawley marriage.
Annie Elizabeth (mmn Hamling) is NOT the child with Charles & Jane. She's with her mother in 1881;
Joseph Thomas Harris in the London, England, Church of England Marriages and Banns, 1754-1936 Name: Joseph Thomas Harris [bootmaker] Gender: Male Marriage Age: 27 Record Type: Marriage Birth Date: abt 1852 Marriage Date: 15 Apr 1879 Marriage Place: St John, Bethnal Green, Tower Hamlets, England Father: John Harris [ chapel (something?) ] Spouse: Mary Ann Hamling [ father: Thomas Parr Hamling, carpenter ] Register Type: Parish Register
Mary Ann born 1848 in Kelvedon, Essex, per 1851, 1861, 1871 censuses. Parents : Thomas, and Phillis Goodman.
Mary A. Harris in the 1881 England Census Name: Mary A. Harris Age: 32 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1849 Gender: Female Where born: Essex, England Civil Parish: Hackney County/Island: London Country: England Street Address: 76 Church Rd Marital status: Married Education: Employment status: View image Occupation: Laundress Registration District: Hackney Sub registration district: West Hackney ED, institution, or vessel: 41 Neighbors: Piece: 309 Folio: 80 Page Number: 47 Household Members: Name Age John Kinlen 25 Elizabeth Kinlen 23 Mary A. Harris 32 Annie E. Harris 1 <<<<<<<<<<<<<< Mary Ann Cable 29 Mary Ann Cable 12
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BrianW
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26 May 2021 16:27 |
Thanks, Gran. Looks like I am going to have to send for a few birth certificates (haven't had to do that for a while).
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ArgyllGran
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26 May 2021 15:46 |
Assuming whoever registered the birth was telling the truth, the dash should mean that the mother's surname was Macey, and she was unmarried.
However, the birth cert should give the mother's first name as well, which might help track her down.
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BrianW
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26 May 2021 15:35 |
Quite likely, the Harrises and Maceys seem to have lived inter-twining lives.
Shame there is no MMN on the GRO birth record unless the dash is meant to indicate that it is the same as her current name?
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ArgyllGran
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26 May 2021 13:00 |
Ada in 1911, with her future husband:
Ada Harris in the 1911 England Census Name: Ada Harris Age in 1911: 36 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1875 Relation to Head: Daughter Gender: Female Birth Place: London, United Kingdom Civil Parish: St John-at-Hackney Country: England Street Address: 4 Middle St, Shacklewell Lane, Hackney Marital status: Single Occupation: Mangling Registration District Number: 11 Sub-registration District: North Hackney ED, institution, or vessel: 32 Piece: 1065 Household Members: Name Age Charles Harris 86 Ada Harris 36 Harry Worboys 35
Ada L Worboys in the 1939 England and Wales Register Name: Ada L Worboys Gender: Female Marital Status: Married Birth Date: 18 Sep 1874 <<<<<<<<<<< Residence Year: 1939 Address: 82 Morley House Residence Place: Hackney, London, England Occupation: Incapacitated Line Number: 12 Schedule Number: 184 Sub Schedule Number: 2 Enumeration District: AIBJ Borough: Hackney Registration district: 12/1 Inferred Spouse: Harry C Worboys Household Members Age Harry C Worboys 64 Ada L Worboys 65
???? MACEY, ADA - GRO Reference: 1874 D Quarter in HACKNEY Volume 01B Page 470
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BrianW
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26 May 2021 12:34 |
I'm starting to wonder if the Harrises actually had any children of their own !
Ada Louise married another of my rellies in 1914 but I can't identify her birth c.1873/4.
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ArgyllGran
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25 May 2021 12:59 |
??? Coincidence ?? Or yet another adopted daughter for the Harrises?
MACEY, ELIZA ESTHER mmn COLLETT GRO Reference: 1878 J Quarter in HACKNEY Volume 01B Page 481
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ArgyllGran
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25 May 2021 12:37 |
You say that Elizabeth 1880 is Annie Elizabeth - she's Annie in 1891 census, but the birth you suggest is not the right one - unless she's not Jane Crawley's daughter:
HARRIS, ANNIE ELIZABETH mmn HAMLING GRO Reference: 1880 J Quarter in HACKNEY Volume 01B Page 619
[Perhaps another adopted daughter, like your gr-grandmother ??]
Annie Harris in the 1891 England Census Name: Annie Harris Gender: Female Age: 10 Relationship: Daughter Birth Year: 1881 Father: Charles Harris Birth Place: Hackney, London, England Civil Parish: Hackney Ecclesiastical parish: West Hackney Residence Place: Hackney, Hackney, London, England Registration District: Hackney Sub registration district: West Hackney ED, Institution or Vessel: 9 Neighbors: Piece: 186 Folio: 77 Household Members: Name Age Charles Harris 64 Jane Harris 19 Ada Harris 16 Eliza Harris 13 Annie Harris 10
If this is her marriage, she's Annie Elizabeth then - father Charles Harris, labourer:
Annie Elizabeth Harris in the London, England, Church of England Marriages and Banns, 1754-1936 Name: Annie Elizabeth Harris Gender: Female Marriage Age: 23 Record Type: Marriage Birth Date: abt 1881 Marriage Date: 26 Dec 1904 Marriage Place: West Hackney, Hackney, England Spouse: George Edwin Cane Register Type: Parish Registe
She's also Annie Elizabeth when she's a witness to Ada Louise's marriage in 1914.
If Eliza and Elizabeth/Annie in 1881 census are both daughters of Charles & Jane, I don't see their births.
Eliza is definitely Eliza Esther who married in 1902 - father Charles, address 4 Middle Street. But no birth record, as far as I can see.
Eliza Ether Harris in the 1901 England Census Name: Eliza Ether Harris Age: 23 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1878 Relation to Head: Daughter Gender: Female Father: Charles Harris Birth Place: Hackney, London, England Civil Parish: Hackney Ecclesiastical parish: St James West Hackney County/Island: London Country: England Street Address: 4 Middle Street Occupation: Registration District: Hackney Sub-registration District: North Hackney ED, institution, or vessel: 22 Neighbors: Piece: 214 Folio: 100 Page Number: 26 Household Schedule Number: 174 Household Members: Name Age Charles Harris 78 Ada Louise Harris 26 Eliza Ether Harris 23
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ArgyllGran
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25 May 2021 10:16 |
There's no sign of the Eliza/beth in 1851 and 1861 having died between 1861 and 1881, nor any marriage - assuming either would have been in Hackney RD..
It may or may not apply in this case, but it's not unknown for two concurrent siblings to have the same name. Must have been very confusing.
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BrianW
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25 May 2021 06:57 |
Eliza Harris: Aged 2 on 1851 census, Born Prospect Place, Kingsland Baptised 17/09/1848 at West Hackney parish church as Eliza Harriet Harris, parents Charles & Jane Harris of Upper Prospect Place, Kingsland Aged 13 as Elizabeth on 1861 census, born Middx., Newington
On the 1881 census we appear to have: Charles Harris aged 50 Jane Harris aged 45 William Harris aged 16 Jane Harris aged 10 Ada Harris aged 8 Eliza Harris aged 3 - Appears as Eliza Esther Harris aged 23 on 1901 census and married Walter Alexander in 1902 - Hackney 1b 748 Jun qtr. 1902 Elizabeth Harris aged 10 months - Actually Annie Elizabeth - birth Hackney 1b 619 Jun qtr. 1880
If their first child was named Eliza I wonder why they would use the same name again unless the first one had died?
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ArgyllGran
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24 May 2021 17:48 |
Do you mean Elizabeth Harris, ErikaH?
Can't see her anywhere as Harris after 1861.
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ArgyllGran
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24 May 2021 17:45 |
I wondered if this mmn was Crawley mistranscribed :
HARRIS, ELIZABETH mmn SERANY GRO Reference: 1846 S Quarter in HACKNEY UNION Volume 03 Page 197
But it's too early.
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ArgyllGran
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24 May 2021 17:39 |
1851 - Eliza Harris born in Prospect Place, Kingsland, c 1849. 1861 - Elizabeth Harris born in Newington, Middlesex, c1848. 1871 - Elizabeth Mally born in Shacklewell, c1847
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BrianW
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24 May 2021 17:18 |
ArgyllGran may well be right and Elizabeth Mally/Macey is Charles and Jane Harris's eldest daughter: the age and MMN would both fit. I was assuming that as she was described as Visitor on the 1871 census she was an external person when in fact it was indicating that 4 Middle Street wasn't her normal address. I'll look back at the 1871 census to check what her place of birth was.
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ArgyllGran
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24 May 2021 12:29 |
That's why I wondered if she might be using the name Mally (Macey ?).
I know she's listed as a lodger rather than a daughter, but that's not an unknown happening.
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ArgyllGran
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24 May 2021 09:43 |
Eliza Harris in the 1851 England Census Name: Eliza Harris Age: 2 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1849 Relation: Daughter Father's Name: Charles Harris Mother's Name: Jane Harris Gender: Female Where born: Bospect [Prospect ] Place, Kingsland, Middlesex, England Civil Parish: Hornsey Ecclesiastical parish: Stoke Newington St Matthias Phillimore Ecclesiastical Parish Maps: View related Ecclesiastical Parish County/Island: Middlesex Country: England Street Address: Occupation: Condition as to marriage: Disability: View image Registration District: Edmonton Sub-registration District: Hornsey ED, institution, or vessel: 1d Neighbors: Household Schedule Number: 123 Piece: 1702 Folio: 107 Page Number: 36 Household Members: Name Age Charles Harris 22 Jane Harris 25 Eliza Harris 2
Kingsland is/was in Hackney RD
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ArgyllGran
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24 May 2021 09:35 |
Here are Charles and Jane with children in 1861:
Charles Harris in the 1861 England Census Name: Charles Harris Age: 32 Estimated Birth Year: 1829 Relation: Mars Gender: Male Where born: Limehouse, Middlesex, England Civil Parish: Hackney St John Ecclesiastical parish: West Hackney County/Island: Middlesex Country: England Street Address: Occupation: Condition as to marriage: View image Registration District: Hackney Sub-registration District: West Hackney ED, institution, or vessel: 5 Neighbors: Household Schedule Number: 183 Piece: 154 Folio: 124 Page Number: 32 Household Members: Name Age Richard Stiles 36 Ann Stiles 37 Richard Stiles 8 Frank Stiles 6 William Stiles 5 Fredrick Stiles 2 Charles Harris 32 Jane Harris 31 Elizabeth Harris 13 - daughter, Newington Charles Harris 7 George Harris 1
Just a wild thought - is it possible that their daughter Elizabeth is Elizabeth Macey/Mally, perhaps using a partner's surname in 1871 even though unmarried?? The ages would fit.
Have you found Elizabeth Harris after 1861? Have you found her birth? I can see Charles and George's births, but not hers.
HARRIS, CHARLES mmn CRAWLEY GRO Reference: 1854 S Quarter in EDMONTON Volume 03A Page 103
HARRIS, GEORGE mmn CRAWLEY GRO Reference: 1859 D Quarter in HACKNEY Volume 01B Page 316
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BrianW
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24 May 2021 09:21 |
Charles Macey registered the birth on 20th November (1871).
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