General Chat

Thank you both - that's very useful. I have been on genes reunited for years and have never used these messaging boards before - I must say I am hugely impressed how people are willing to help.

Thanks so much - I hope I can help you all in the future

Suzi

The average airman needs to be A4 G1 Z1. This is a general fitness with the basic medical checks and with the ability to do the required tasks and go anywhere in the world.

Some jobs needed a greater depth of fitness.

My job in the WRAF was as a dental nurse. The aircrew had to have a full in depth medical once a year which included a dental inspection. The dentist could stop the required grade of A1 G1 Z1 needed to be aircrew if a lot of dental work was required. I remember 1 aircrew member who refused treatment so was given a coding of A4 G1 Z1. He came and asked for his treatment when told he was grounded and would lose his flying pay.

When I was ill for 2 weeks I was declared At Gt Zt which meant temporary unfit for everything, this was altered after another medical check back to A4 G1 Z1.

I have come across people who are generally fit so ok for duties but with a coding to keep them out of hot climates.

I don't know the grading during the war or for all the odd codes they used. Perhaps an ex medical officer or medic may be amongst us who may help with this.

Hope this helps a little :-)

Don't know if this is relevant, but it may help, It was a response on another site to a similar query



Sorry, just seen this...

This will explain all....

The development of the British Army’s system of medical
classification illustrates concepts that are very relevant to
modern occupational health. In 1939, there was a
mobilisation for war of the United Kingdom’s reserve
forces. These soldiers were placed in a number of medical
categories as follow:
A – fit for general service at home and abroad,
B – unfit for general service abroad but fit for base or
garrison service at home and abroad,
C – fit for home service only,
D – unfit for any form of military service.
The situation was complicated by the need to examine all
civilian recruits, both volunteers and those called up to the
Army. These examinations were performed by Civilian
Medical Boards which classified recruits into four grades,
the fourth being unfit for service.
These grades only took account of the physical and
medical condition of the recruit and made neither allowance
for where the recruit was to be sent nor for their employment.
Not surprisingly, there were complaints that recruits were
physically incapable of performing their duties.
What was needed was a system that translated the four
grades given by the Civilian Medical Boards into something
of use to the Army. This was critical because it was
essential to ensure the economical use of manpower. In
1940, a system of categories was selected by the Army as
follows:
· A1, A2, B1, B2, B3, B4, B5: These seven categories
were based on vision in relation to shooting and driving,
physical endurance, the ability to march and the
manifestation of any other disease which would affect
military duty. The categories also had caveats which
determined both task and location worldwide.
· C: Home service only.
· D: Temporarily unfit.
· E: Permanently unfit.
The Army allocated a soldier to one of these categories
on the basis of the Civilian Medical Board grades. The
linkage was complex and never worked well.
The scale of the problem is worth noting. During the
Second World War, it is calculated that the Civilian Medical
Boards undertook over seven million examinations, taking
more than three and a half million hours. The results of the
examinations show that by the age of 37, only 44% were fit
for their age and 20% were unfit for service.
During the War, this classification system evolved but it
was never entirely satisfactory. By 1945, there were some
72 sub-categories. The key problem was the failure by
medical officers, when assessing physical capacity, to
distinguish between the mere existence of defect and what
result that defect had on functional ability.
Various developments were introduced. These included
the re-examination of recruits after one month in training
and the re-examination of personnel who had been
categorised as unfit for duty, before they were sent back to
duty. Various geographical qualifications were also
included to ensure that soldiers, who were basically fit but
could not go to the tropics, were employed in their highest
category.
The unsatisfactory situation resulted in the adoption of a
Canadian system, known as PULHEMS. The PULHEMS
acronym stands for the following qualities:
P – physical capacity, U – upper extremity, L – locomotion,
H – hearing, E – eyesight, M – mental capacity, S – stability
of emotions.
For each quality, the soldier is given a number. From this,
a PULHHEEMS profile, a series of numbers, is derived.
Note that an extra H and an extra E have been introduced
so that each ear and eye can be assessed separately. This
profile is used to place soldiers in an appropriate employment
by the use of PULHHEEMS Employment Standards which
provide a linkage to the type of work carried out by each
part of the Army and includes geographical restrictions.
The following is a simplification of the current British
Army’s PULHHEEMS System, which has developed over
50 years:
P2 – fully fit, P3 – light duties, P3R – pregnant, P7 – limited
duties, P8 – medically unfit, P0 – unfit, under medical care.
The P quality for overall physical capacity is the dominant
one. Recent developments have concluded that the
geographical limitations were unnecessarily restrictive
and more flexibility has been introduced.
The history of the introduction and development of the
PULHHEEMS System has been evolutionary. It has proved
remarkably robust. Since the end of the Cold War and with
the development of a more expeditionary army, there has
been a need to simplify it. Again!

Thank you so much Roy, as far as I was ever told Grandad stayed home during the war as he was "necessary war work" as he was involved in building (Quantity Surveyor). This doesn't mean I suppose that he still wasn't medically checked to determine whether he was theoretically fir for fighting. Or maybe the decision to keep him on British soil was made after the medical. With the loss of my Grandparents I suppose I will never know. Google is usually a most brilliant tool but in this case I have found so little, so I appreciate your response.

Thanks

Suzi

I understand that grade 1, 2, and 3 meant that person was fit for military service but my understanding is also that a persons civilian trade was taken into account when determining a grade, edit, Those in grades I, 2, and 3 were deemed suitable for the armed services (albeit in differing capacities) so could be Army, Navy, Airforce

Not sure about the difference between these grades but at a guess grade one could be that he is fit for the front line such as infantry and grade 2 possibly in a supporting role such as artillery with grade 3 in the rear echelons and supply chain

I will have another look around at a later date to see if I can find anything more specific that would clarify the difference

Roy

Does anyone know what grade 3 means on the National Service Act 1939 Grade Card - it has no other notes?

Thanks

Muffy

The military can do very strange things.


My brother was older than I was, and was due to be called up for National Service around 1950, when he turned 18.

The medical showed he had flat feet, and also that he was all but blind in his right eye


so they said they would have to turn him down

HOWEVER, as he had been a Sea Cadet for several years, had achieved a high rank in his "squad, and was very interested in the navy ........... they would re-consider the decision, and over-rule the medical


They would take him into the navy, but he would have to be in a desk job because of the flat feet.

Even desk sailors have to be able to fight and shoot a gun, so they would then teach him how to shoot using his left eye. :-D




He decided that he did not want a desk job ................... so the medical review stood, and he didn't do NS





sylvia

oh dear.......it's all very mundane............he had flat feet...pmsl..you were right Kay !!!!!!!! Just spent the evening trying to get to the bottom of it all with my aunt LOLOLOLOL....he was a poorly man when I knew him and I rarely saw him walk far so I'd never have bothered to ask if I hadn't seen that card

Really chuffed to see his signature for the first time though.......he never had enough money to write a cheque as far as I can recall........and his betting slips I used to drop into the bookies in the old days were in block caps. Lovely day spent remembering my dear old Grandad with love..........flat feet and all lol x

You're welcome.
And if you have to pay extra for a "local" number, it is also 0141 224 2335.

Thanks Joy...I've made a note of that x

Roy...yep...he was 20 in 1939 so that would explain a bit of the background...thanks for that...really interesting x

LMAO@Kay

Thanks for all the info...will follow it all up ...thanks x

he probally just suffered from athlethes foot/or high arches/or flat feet. ?


I would have read it as,,

2----feet,,,,,,,, ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) :-D :-D

When I obtained my father's service records, there was a note saying if there was anything I did not understand, to contact the supplier: Army Personnel Centre, Historic Disclosures, Mailpoint 400, Kentigern House, 65 Brown Street, Glasgow, G2 8EX (telephone 0845 600 9663).

This could shed some light on your problem

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Training_Act_1939

There was one registration under the Act, of the first cohort of liable males, on Saturday 3 June 1939, and call-up for these men followed. However, the Act was superseded on the outbreak of war in September 1939 by the National Service (Armed Forces) Act 1939.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Service_(Armed_Forces)_Act_1939

Roy

with anything military all documents only has relevance in as much as things get recorded on various army forms/documents what is written on these documents will always refer to action taken and under who's authority and in the case of the military that authority is the kings regulations also known as the Queens regulations depending on who the monarch is at that time in history

so when a soldier is injured as in your case then the medical officer has to document his findings and decide on the course of action so from what you say this man had been down graded because he had a problem with his feet, and was down graded based on the relevant KR
the problem is that although parts of the KR can be found online it is difficult to find the particular regulation you need because the card you have does not state the actual paragraph, with only the section and sub section to go on it may be worth searching the national archives to see if anything could be found in relation to what chapter/paragraph the card refers to

Roy

Hiya Julia ..that was my guess as well.

Hi Roy...Military training act 1939 is what it says on the card....and he served from then until the end of the war. I know he came back from Burma with problems with his feet but was unaware of a problem back in 1939 before he went to war x

**to clarify...it's a grade card...not a medical card...my mistake...says Military Training act 1939 at the top with Grade card written underneath...date was 19 June 1939...not sure if relevant but thought I'd mention x

Do you refer to the Kings Regulation 392? if so

it would be

paragraph 392
(ii) Having been irregularly enlisted
(a) Recruit rejected both by medical officer and approving officer

he had a problem with his Feet which affected his ability to soldier so was released from service under paragraph 392

either way the (ii) a, Would refer to the section, and subsections within a specific paragraph in KR


Roy

Muffy, and this is just a guess off the top of my head, but how about:-
A Grade 2, but problem with feet. In other words he was A1 fit, but his foot problem down graded him to a 2nd, grade.
Does that make any sense. I am sure someone will come along and correct me.

Julia in Derbyshire

Just found my Grandad's military medical card and on it his grade is......

2(but in roman numerals) (a) (feet)

Now I know a means fit for service at home or overseas...but i'm unsure about what the rest means and google is confusing things further lol...any kind soul able to put me out of my misery so to speak lol ...Would be much appreciated x