General Chat

Good morning everyone, and a quiet prayer for today - from the Archbishop of York



Gracious Father,You gave up your Son
out of love for your world:
Look with mercy on Madiba Mandela;
And on all your children in South Africa.
As they reflect on Christ's Death and Resurrection,
may they know eternal peace
through the shedding of our Saviour's blood,
Jesus Christ our Lord.
Amen.



Cx

Amen, Cynthia

What a huge influence Madiba (Nelson Mandela) has had on this world. His funeral will draw so many different people together. World leaders from every corner of the globe. And so many ordinary people, of all nations. A man of royal Thembu blood who had the ability to communicate with everyone.

God bless him and his family

I have just seen this on FB and thought it so very true.



"Poverty is not an accident.
Like slavery and apartheid,
it is man-made and can be
removed by the actions
of human beings".

- Nelson Mandela.

RIP.

Nelson Mandela. A real inspiration to us all. May he Rest in Peace.

Day 6 of my Advent Calendar;

"Fear not to take Mary as your wife", said the Angel Matthew 1:20

Good morning everyone - a little late though it is. I overslept a while :-)


Thank you for sharing your true Advent calendar with us kandj. I do wonder how many of those buying the chocolatey/celebrity type calendars, realise what Advent really means? :-S


A lighthearted moment for today:


WHERE DO THE ROBINS GO IN THE RAIN?

Where do the robins go in the rain,
And the wrens and the chickadees?
Do they tuck their bird bodies under a limb,
And their tiny heads under some leaves?

And when the wind blows, does anyone know,
How they hang on to the trees with their toes?
And what keeps them from falling down to the ground,
When they weigh more than the air that flows?

And what about night, when they leave our sight,
Where do they go to retire?
They don't sleep in the houses that we've built for them,
Nor seem to have any desire.

And another thing ... how do they know,
What time to get up in the mornings?
They're always up first to chirp at the sun,
But who rings their bells ... gives them warnings?

How do they know what size nest they will need,
When they set them up in the spring?
How do they know how many eggs a nest holds?
And how many twigs should they bring?

And I'd like to know, too, how Pigeons coo?
And how other birds warble or trill?
Each song is distinctive for each kind of bird,
Like the Owl and the Whippoorwill.

Who teaches the birds the dangers of cats?
How do they hear when one's near?
Not all cats wear bells ... and not only that,
Have you ever seen a bird's ear?

What wondrous features boast these little creatures,
And, on top of all else ... they can fly;
Now, wasn't God fine to make so many kinds,
And hang them all up in the sky?

~ Virginia Ellis ~



Enjoy your day. Cx :-)

Cynthia, I hope you enjoyed your extra rest this morning, perhaps it is your bodies way of telling you to pamper yourself a little when you seem to always be so busy.

Loving the words by Virginia Ellis. I read each verse and was nodding my head in agreement. What a gifted and talented lady. Thank you for sharing each day.

Day 7 of my beautiful Advent Calendar:-

You will bring forth a son and shall call His name Jesus. Luke 1:31.

I agree with your comments and have seen purchases of glittery Advent calendars bought for the boys band group on the front or for the chocolates inside.....how sad.

Soon us faithful few golden oldies will prepare to make up hundreds of Christingles to be handed out to the village school children whose Headteachers have taken up our new Rectors offer to attend several Christingle services in school time for the children. This happened in the past but stopped a few years ago (boo hoo).
Now we are all happy and smiling to think of seeing the excited little ones pouring into church and being told the story of the Christingle.....what a joy that will be.
Praise God and the new Rector J for bringing our church and village into unity again

Just had a thought that perhaps there may be some poppers-in who don't know about the Christingle services held at this time of year in church.

A Christingle orange is meant to represent the world.

Red ribbon is then wrapped around the orange and this is a symbol of the blood of Jesus shed for our sins.

The 4 cocktail sticks with fruit and sweets represent the 4 Seasons of Spring, Summer, Autumn and Winter and the fruits of the earth.

The lighted candle represents Jesus Christ who is seen as the Light of the World.

A Christingle service is an exciting and a happy event as well as a way to swell the funds for the Church of England Childrens Society as special envelopes are handed around for the offerings and each child present will be handed a Christingle to take home after the service is over.

The Rector is sure to welcome everyone and a hymn or carol is sung at the beginning. The Rector will then hold up a Christingle Orange and explain the significance of all the symbols.

Each child is given a Christingle and a taper is lighted and passed around the church....VERY CAREFULLY and obviously well supervised. We have never had a child burned with the flames ever.

The church lights are turned off for a short while, and a carol is sung before the lights are put back on and the candles are blown out, being extra careful with the hot candle wax with tiny tots around.

This is a very special annual event which sadly hasn't taken place in our church for quite a few years BUT our prayers have been heard and answered and our small church family is more than happy to think our church, schools and the village people will be all together and the Good News will be shared during this time of Advent.

If there is a Christingle Service near you, then I would encourage you to go along and witness the excitement and the magic you will surely find in so special a service.

Good morning everyone. :-)

Thank you for explaining the meaning of the Christingle so beautifully kandj. I haven't been to such a service for a long time and, in fact, I have a feeling that they were stopped for a while because of those 'Health and safety' rules which abound. However, if things are organised sensibly, which I am sure most of the services are, then there shouldn't be a problem.


The Collect (special prayer) for today - which will be read in most churches:


O Lord, raise up, we pray, your power
and come among us,
and with great might succour us;
that whereas, through our sins and wickedness
we are grievously hindered
in running the race that is set before us,
your bountiful grace and mercy
may speedily help and deliver us;
through Jesus Christ your Son our Lord,
to whom with you and the Holy Spirit,
be honour and glory, now and for ever.


May pop in later........Cx :-)

I have just read this. I think it is circulating as an e mail but I saw it on facebook. It does give something to think about.


Apparently the White House referred to Christmas Trees as Holiday Trees for the first time this year, which prompted CBS presenter, Ben Stein, to present this piece which I would like to share with you. The following was written by Ben Stein and recited by him on CBS Sunday Morning Commentary. My confession: I am a Jew, and every single one of my ancestors was Jewish. And it does not bother me even a little bit when people call those beautiful lit up, bejewelled trees, Christmas trees. I don't feel threatened. I don't feel discriminated against. That's what they are, Christmas trees. It doesn't bother me a bit when people say, 'Merry Christmas' to me. I don't think they are slighting me or getting ready to put me in a ghetto. In fact, I kind of like it. It shows that we are all brothers and sisters celebrating this happy time of year. It doesn't bother me at all that there is a manger scene on display at a key intersection near my beach house in Malibu. If people want a nativity scene, it's just as fine with me as is the Menorah a few hundred yards away. I don't like getting pushed around for being a Jew, and I don't think Christians like getting pushed around for being Christians. I think people who believe in God are sick and tired of getting pushed around, period. I have no idea where the concept came from, that America is an explicitly atheist country. I can't find it in the Constitution and I don't like it being shoved down my throat. Or maybe I can put it another way: where did the idea come from that we should worship celebrities and we aren't allowed to worship God? I guess that's a sign that I'm getting old, too. But there are a lot of us who are wondering where these celebrities came from and where the America we knew went to. In light of the many jokes we send to one another for a laugh, this is a little different: This is not intended to be a joke; it's not funny, it's intended to get you thinking. Billy Graham's daughter was interviewed on the Early Show and Jane Clayson asked her 'How could God let something like this happen?' (regarding Hurricane Katrina). Anne Graham gave an extremely profound and insightful response. She said, 'I believe God is deeply saddened by this, just as we are, but for years we've been telling God to get out of our schools, to get out of our government and to get out of our lives.And being the gentleman He is, I believe He has calmly backed out. How can we expect God to give us His blessing and His protection if we demand He leave us alone?' In light of recent events... terrorist attacks, school shootings, etc. I think it started when Madeleine Murray O'Hare (she was murdered, her body found a few years ago) complained she didn't want prayer in our schools, and we said OK. Then someone said you better not read the Bible in school. The Bible says thou shalt not kill; thou shalt not steal, and love your neighbor as yourself. And we said OK. Then Dr. Benjamin Spock said we shouldn't spank our children when they misbehave, because their little personalities would be warped and we might damage their self-esteem (Dr. Spock's son committed suicide). We said an expert should know what he's talking about. And we said okay. Now we're asking ourselves why our children have no conscience, why they don't know right from wrong, and why it doesn't bother them to kill strangers, their classmates, and themselves. Probably, if we think about it long and hard enough, we can figure it out. I think it has a great deal to do with 'WE REAP WHAT WE SOW.' Funny how simple it is for people to trash God and then wonder why the world's going to hell. Funny how we believe what the newspapers say, but question what the Bible says. Funny how you can send 'jokes' through e-mail and they spread like wildfire, but when you start sending messages regarding the Lord, people think twice about sharing. Funny how lewd, crude, vulgar and obscene articles pass freely through cyberspace, but public discussion of God is suppressed in the school and workplace. Are you laughing yet? Funny how when you forward this message, you will not send it to many on your address list because you're not sure what they believe, or what they will think of you for sending it. Funny how we can be more worried about what other people think of us than what God thinks of us. Pass it on if you think it has merit. If not, then just discard it.... no one will know you did. But, if you discard this thought process, don't sit back and complain about what a bad shape the world is in. My Best Regards, Honestly and respectfully, Ben Stein

Very deep and profound Ann but also very true and scary too when Christians feel we have to explain the deep happiness that our faith and Christmas gives to us.

Day 8 of my religious Advent Calendar:

He will save his people from their sins. Matthew 1:21.

I have been away on a weekend retreat in Herefordshire and the course leader has been Canon Trevor Dennis of Chester Cathedral. WSonderful weekend and really looking at all the Old Testament promises about the nativity story. "God contracted to a span, incomprehensibly made man".

There was no donkey - Mary walked 67 miles, very young (not that much older than these litte girls in school nativity plays). and very pregnant.
There were no wise men called Snap Crackle and Pop, or Melchior etc etc. There were magi (nobody knows how many) who came to find the baby and went to the wrong place and alerted King Herod to the prophesy of a baby being born in Bethlehem at about that time who would be a King of Israel. Hence the mass slaughter of young babies that ensued.
There was no inn. The word in the original means guest room (inside a house)
There was no stable.
There would have been a midwife and village women to help her labour, not shepherds (however washed and hygienic they were).

Canon Dennis opened our eyes to the true story - which is far more wonderful than those nativity plays that we all had fun enacting and now watching our children and grandchildren perform.

Haven't caught up yet, but did notice that kandj had explained the Christingle orange. Wonderful - and one of the memories I shall take to my grave is one such service in Ely Cathedral in late 1980's. My little daughter and hundreds of other with big smiles carrying an orange with candles in the darkness of that unlit and massive Cathedral. :-) :-)

John, are you quoting what you have been told this weekend, or what you already know. Either way, where are the references to back up what you are saying which goes against the teaching of churches through the years.

Ann. Sorry to upset you. Purpose was not to upset, but there is a big gap between the Bible account and the traditions that have arisen over the centuries. Everything I have put is either in the Bible or implied in the Bible. But it will not stop me singing "Away in a Manger" or other carols based on tradition rather than fact. I will just be happy if a few more people this year remember Christmas is primarily a religious Mass for Christ rather than a mass of commercialism.

If you can find a donkey carrying Mary, or anywhere where it says there were wise men, that they were kings or that there were 3 magi, I will apologise and remove.

The actual Bible story is far more wonderful in my view than the way it is presented in most school plays.

Hello everyone. Thank you for your posting Ann.....it's something I have seen before and there is a lot of truth in it.

As for John and his statements, those too, I have heard before and they are points which have been debated by scholars for many years.

I think that, so often, we all maintain a childhood image of the stable with the 3 wise men and shepherds etc. but it can rather over simplify reality and make it very sentimental.

Nowhere in scripture does it say about 3 wise men but it DOES say that 3 gifts were presented. Also, scripture does tell us that Jesus was not an infant but a young child living in a house when these gifts were presented. When I put my nativity scene out, I don't put the baby into the crib until Christmas Day and the Wise men stay firmly in the background and are brought forward at Epiphany.


There are many websites which discuss these points and, only last year, Pope Benedict had a book published on the very subjects described by John.

I rather like the (then) Pope's response to his critics....

Should these discrepancies bother Christians?

The pope says no. "The aim of the evangelists was not to produce an exhaustive account," he writes, "but a record of what seemed important for the nascent faith community in the light of the word."

The Nativity story emphasizes Christ's humility, and the wonder of God taking on human form. The accounts of Jesus' life are not intended as histories, said Bart D. Ehrman, a professor of religious studies at the University of North Carolina, but as gospels — "proclamations of the good news." The true meaning of Christmas, he says, lies not in "what really did happen," but in "what really does happen, in the lives of those who believe that stories such as these can convey a greater truth."


This is a link to another thread which discusses the above:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2236195/New-Jesus-book-reveals-donkeys-crib-lowing-oxen-definitely-carols-Christmas.html

Hope this helps :-)

Good morning everyone.......I hope you are all well.


Church went quite well yesterday with reasonable congregations. A bit of 'flapping' and 'flitting' by some - mainly because they are new to their roles, but we managed fine. Next week we have the Sunday School nativity to look forward to and we are also having some new pew cushions dedicated in memory of our late vicar.


I thought I would share the following familiar prayer with you - in it's entirety!


God grant me the
Serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can, and the
Wisdom to know the difference.
Living one day at a time;
Enjoying one moment at a time;
Accepting hardship as the pathway to peace.
Taking, as He did,
This sinful world as it is ...
Not as I would have it.
Trusting that He will make all things right
If I surrender to His Will;
That I may be reasonably happy in this life,
And supremely happy with Him
Forever in the next.

Amen

~ Reinhold Neibuhr ~



Enjoy your day Cx :-)

Glad it went well yesterday, Cynthia. I still flip and flap when asked to do new things (and plenty of that this last weekend on my study course) but hopefully we gain the ability to flit and flap off stage. But look as calm as a cucumber on stage, as if we were born to serve congregations and nothing ever goes wrong off-stage, so to speak.

I am reading about the Rossettis at present (Dante, William and Christina). What a talented family, although plenty of flittin and flappin off stage :-D

This hymn from Christina is lovely at this time of year:

Love came down at Christmas,
Love all lovely, Love divine;
Love was born at Christmas,
Stars and angels gave the sign.

Worship we the Godhead,
Love incarnate, Love divine;
Worship we our Jesus:
But wherewith for sacred sign?

Love shall be our token,
Love be yours and love be mine,
Love to God and all the world,
Love for plea and gift and sign.

A lovely bright sunny day here in Yorkshire this morning, quite fresh but thankfully I have a warm coat, good shoes and hat, scarf and gloves to keep me warm.

Cynthia, I was interested to read the extended verse as I am only familiar with the first four lines and never knew the author either, learn something new every day. Thank you.

John, I hope your spiritual batteries are recharged from your retreat, thanks for sharing the subject although I have read this several years ago, it is important.

Day 9 from my Advent calendar:

Joseph went up from Nazareth to Bethlehem with Mary. Luke 2: 4-5.

Have had internet problems so have not been on line much the last few days and I am just catching up on the thread.

I pop in nearly every day but don't post very often so thank you to all you regular posters who keep the thread going.

I was interested in John's post of 8th December about the facts/fiction of the nativity story. I knew much of what John has written but not all. A few days ago I turned on the radio and caught the end of a discussion on this theme. I had never realised that it is believed that Jesus was born in Nazareth, not Bethlehem. As I switched on just as the programme was finishing I never learnt the evidence for this.

Have just read the link to that new book by Pope Benedict. It is a lot of what I thought!!! And a huge number have been sold.

Now I find myself in agreement about the true Christmas story with a Canon from Chester Cathedral and a Pope. And me a simple Methodist lay person.

Did Christmas use to be much more than a Christmas Mass before Prince Albert and Charles Dickens, I wonder. Just reading a book about servants in 1860's in London. Their families upstairs (not a huge percentage of population) used to enjoy their Christmas with family attendance at church compulsory and a large lunch of goose or occasionally turkey. It was a Mass in the church calendar, after all.

But I note servants (two thirds of employed females) stayed in situ and did exactly the same as they did any other day of the year. I cannot see any evidence of cards and presents, just cleaning the front steps, clearing the slops away and then (often with no proof of handwashing) making breakfast for master or mistress. Have now got to 1867, and presumably things changed soon after that - we shall see.

In this particular household, a German girl was taken on. And that Christmas, all the other servants were amazed to see lots of cakes, sweets and paper cut out and festooned round the servant's parlour. And they each got a present off Clara. She had stolen the money (it later emerged) and the servants were uneasy with all this revelry, even before they knew she had been fiddling with their money and private things. "Make sure mistress does not come downstairs and see what Clara has been wasting her money on" was one comment.

Now we can all be "upper class" and celebrate Christmas. Yet how sad it is (to me) that so many forget the true celebration and want to celebrate like Clara - often taking the money from Barclaycard or Wonga to fund sheer unnecessary extravagance. Because they feel their friends and family expect them to spend wastefully.

I do feel cards and presents and decorations are lovely, but not to be worshipped or to be essential. 10 posts a day, a home made card and a penny to post made cards affordable in late Victorian times. But 50p to post, an expensive card and Royal Mail threatening strikes every Christmas makes it less pleasurable. And keeping lists of "who has not posted a card to me for last 2 years, I will strike them off" is probably not what Jesus would have done with his friends. :-) Christ's Mass. All are very welcome, and some churches even open their doors still on Christmas Day to receive your best present of all. Your presence at this Mass to celebrate his birth in Bethlehem. How he would love you to be there with him.

Vera. I was told this also (Nazareth not Bethlehem) this weekend. Based on the following "facts", it appears:
1. Jesus was born 4 BC.
2. No census in 4BC.

However, I take all that with a pinch of salt. The Romans loved having censuses (wonder if Ancestry or GR have got any of these from Israel at that time?)

It was true that Herod (a Jew) was very keen to impress his Emperor and kept having censuses. Usually they were, like we have, at their place of residence. But I think also he was fond of sending people back to their home towns.

So the roads would occasionally have been full of families passing each other on their way to register in those years.

Might he have called all the tribe of David (including Joseph of Nazareth back to their home village of Bethlehem? Herod would have been aware there was an imminent threat to his family's kingship of Israel in the old Jewish prophesies written hundreds of years before. He would then have had a reliable register of all the line of David and could then start on his policy of targetting and killing all babies from the royal family of the psalmist David up to the age of 2. In his mind, to protect his family's right (under the Roman Emperor) to govern the land into eternity.

We looked at this atrocity incidentally this weekend (just very briefly) from a Roman soldier's point of view. I felt as sad for him as I did for the slaughtered babies. And those sort of orders are still given to soldiers in 2013.

The titles of the Roman Emperor that were widely used in Jerusalem were interesting. He was called "The Son of God", "the Sun of Righteousness", "the King of Kings". Now today, in North Korea...................................................