General Chat

Sylvia I just wanted to say that I find your posts
very interesting and more so the last one on your
friend who travels all over.

Cynthia thank you as always for your post and kandj
for sharing the readings from your Advent Calendar.
John not forgetting yourself and your many takes on
verses from the Bible.

Emma :-)

Sylvia, your friend is blessed to be able to travel to such special places and be given the brain to think things through..... a double blessing for him indeed, and for you also as he shares his scientific thoughts with you. Thank you for passing them on to us too

Cynthia, I also feel that Advent isn't always given the importance it deserves. Attention is focused on Christmas but for the wrong reasons, too much hype and commercialism and pressure imho.
During Advent we remember Mary and Joseph and give thanks for their faithfulness, courage and obedience, stepping out into the unknown in the strength of the Spirit.

John, I am pleased that you enjoy reading the scripture from my Advent calendar as I really am happy to share the bible words with all who read this thread.
Day 11 from my Advent calendar:-

There were shepherds in the field keeping watch over their flock. Luke 2: 8

I am off to church shortly to help make up Christingle oranges for the village school children. We have a new Lady Rector who has invited the schools to come into church and share some of the wonder that is found inside this beautiful building.
There are to be 4 Christingle services and Jan has requested 600 Christingle oranges!!! I hope we will have a few volunteers, but I suspect that it will be the faithful few as always, so it could take many hours but we will enjoy happy fellowship

Quite powerful words, Cynthia. I can hear mutterings off from here. But we have to remind that it was not all fun and gaiety on that first Noel. Like real life, we see the happiness through the strains and the tears.

I should imagine any visit to the Holy Land is amazing. I just love to google earth sometimes and seed what it was like for people to trek out to see John the Baptist in the wilderness. Or Saul the rabbi marching from Jerusalem to Damascus to nip Christianity in the bud. And I am lookinhg forward to your friend's book, Sylvia. Anything that is written scientifically from a contrite heart is fascinating to me. Too many proud and conceited hearts in this world.

I also love these verses that we get from kandj.

Can I add an Old Testament text from Zephaniah:

Sing, Daughter Zion;
shout aloud, Israel!
Be glad and rejoice with all your heart,
Daughter Jerusalem!
The Lord has taken away your punishment,
he has turned back your enemy.
The Lord, the King of Israel, is with you;
never again will you fear any harm.
On that day
they will say to Jerusalem,
“Do not fear, Zion;
do not let your hands hang limp.
The Lord your God is with you,
the Mighty Warrior who saves.
He will take great delight in you;
in his love he will no longer rebuke you,
but will rejoice over you with singing.”

“I will remove from you
all who mourn over the loss of your appointed festivals,
which is a burden and reproach for you.
At that time I will deal
with all who oppressed you.
I will rescue the lame;
I will gather the exiles.
I will give them praise and honor
in every land where they have suffered shame.

At that time I will gather you;
at that time I will bring you home.
I will give you honor and praise
among all the peoples of the earth
when I restore your fortunes[e]
before your very eyes,”
says the Lord.

Good morning everyone.... :-)


kandj, thank you for your Advent calendar quotations - they are so apt for the season.


Sylvia, your friend sounds as though he is quite a fundamentalist but he is so fortunate to have been able to visit such special places.

It's not really surprising that areas are not as exact as they are in the bible though - many things will have altered due to landscape and climate change. As you also say, the oral translation will have had an effect too, as scholars have had to translate both from the Hebrew and the Greek language. Much can be lost in translation :-)

I have many friends who have visited the Holy Land and, whilst they have all been aware of the 'tourist traps', ie THIS is the place.....it was HERE such and such happened, they have all come away with a profound sense of awe at what they have experienced.


Last night I had been asked to read at a Carol Service. It always seems too early for carol services to me as we are still only part way through Advent. This is what I chose to read:

There are 'down days' in December -
We don't like to admit it, but there are.
Days when we're tired from extra jobs and cooking;
Days when the strain of social events and meetings
Takes its toll, however much we enjoy doing it all.

Can these 'down days' in December
Serve to help us along our Advent road?
Perhaps they can, if we consider Mary and Joseph -
Was it easy for Mary to cope with the stigma
Of being pregnant, her story too good to be true?

What of Joseph and HIS dilemma?
Should he abandon his betrothed or stand by her?
Before his vision, surely doubt and depression
Dogged his days when the future seemed so uncertain?
Yes, the Advent road was hardly a romantic affair!

Thank you Lord for December blues!
I don't like them, but you can use them!
Days when I need to spend more time with you;
Days when I need to put my trembling hand in yours.
I do trust you Lord, but keep me looking forward to your light!



Take care. Cx :-)

another thought provoking "opinion" of mine for you ................


We have a friend who is an extremely intelligent man, an evolutionary biologist and a very good field botanist (meaning he can actually identify plants growing wild :-) ) ............ he is also a fervent Baptist who deeply believes in the Bible. He has managed to reconcile his religious beliefs with his scientific training.

He has spent a lot of time in the Holy Land doing botanical work, and became interested in visiting all the sites mentioned in the Bible.

He is now in the process of writing a book .........

......... the "sites" that tourists and religious alike are taken to in the Holy Land are NOT actually the sites as mentioned in the Bible!

He has spent years working on this ................... one site at a time.

He goes to a site declared to be the one mentioned in the Bible, stands there with his Bible, and looks around.


In most cases, he then finds that he cannot see what the Bible says he should see ................... and I'm talking in terms of mountains, sea, or other physical geographical features that should still be there even after 1000 or more years.

HOWEVER, he has, in most cases, been able to find the real actual site ........................ often on the next mountain over, or 5 miles away! :-)


In other words ...............

.............. places have been "misplaced" over the 2000 years since Jesus or the disciples last visited them. Most likely, this is due to the oral tradition that prevailed for so long.

Many thought provoking postings, all very special too.

I like "simple". My brain-fog days don't allow me to think too deeply just now. but I have to say the thread is really interesting and my thanks to you all.

Day 10 of Advent calendar is:-

Mary brought forth her first born son and laid him in a manger. Luke 2:7

The Jill Wolf words are "simple", I like it, so thanks Cynthia, and I'm sending out
hugs to everyone right now.

Sylvia

I think what you have written is very honest and very thought-provoking. I have often thought that "harder for a rich man etc than pass through the eye of a needle" referred to those with riches of intelligence rather than wealth.

And these stories are for people with simple childlike minds who can throw away all their cynicism and doubt and truly believe that it MAY all be true.

I am not sure if Saul of Tarsus, Nicodemus (Jewish leader in 1st century and a briliant academic), Gamaliel (teacher of Saul) or Joseph of Arimathea (possibly richest man in Israel in those days) believed the Torah in its entirety. I find it is a slippery slope when we decide such and such could not possibly be true in the Bible, because many of the truths hang together with other passages that seem very fanciful.

Science was already quite well developed 2,000 years ago when Saul and Nicodemus lived and, even if their religion was not challenged much by Jews (and I doubt that), it would certainly have been challenged by the Romans who settled as an invasion force and the Greeks that they later tried to integrate into the infant Christian church.

I have to admit I am not a scientist (although I possess a BSc in the precise science of economics). I would have argued for Dawkins, Bertrand Russell and Charles Darwin for most of my life - until 30 years ago when I suddenly "saw the light of salvation". An assured future of bliss with Jesus when I finally shed my crumbling and ageing shell in this present life and take on a new and perfect body and mind for eternity.

And I really find it difficult to explain why I now see Dawkins et alia as false prophets, leading people away from the truth I have found. And many others have found.

And simple fishermen and carpenters, and retired miners and charladies in my own congregations now have my main attention. They seem much wiser to me than the wisest scientists - much as I admire the contribution of so many very clever and educated people to our lives and happiness.

Good morning everyone :-)


My word, it took a while to get on here today.....but I think a lot of people are having trouble accessing GR at the moment.


Thank you for your thoughts Sylvia. I do understand what you are saying and completely understand your thoughts and doubts.

Unlike you, I certainly do not have a scientific background - maybe that makes things easier for me but I know that there are many Christians within the scientific world. I don't pretend for one minute that I understand scientific issues, but I am very grateful and, indeed, often awestruck by what is achieved by those clever people.

I tend to go along with the old saying.....Christianity is caught....not taught :-)


A light hearted moment for today :


There's something in a simple hug
that always warms the heart.
It welcomes us back home
and makes it easier to part.

A hugs the way to share the joy
and sad times we go through,
Or just a way for friends to say
they like you ‘cuz you're you!

Hugs are meant for anyone
for whom we really care . . .
From your grandma to your neighbor,
or a cuddly teddy bear.

A hug is an amazing thing . . .
it's just the perfect way
To show the love we're feeling
but can't find the words to say.

It's funny how a little hug
makes everyone feel good;
In every place and language,
it's always understood.

And hugs don't need equipment,
special batteries, or parts . . .
Just open up your arms . . .
and open up your hearts!

~ Jill Wolf ~

Love to you all :-)

One thing I always feel ....................

Much of the Bible is based on stories told down the years by the village story tellers ................................

This is not to detract from them OR the Bible,

........... but story tellers would have simplified AND / OR embellished the stories they told of Jesus and the wondrous things he did ......................... just to make it more interesting to their listeners. Thus the shepherds, the Magi, etc


One has only to think of the party game Chinese Whispers to see how stories could begin to differ.


As a scientist, I think there is no doubt that Jesus was not born in 0 BC ............... that would have become a suitable starting point for the story tellers.

But was it 4 BC, 10 BC, or what?


I note that what I learnt as BC = Before Christ and AD = Anno Domini (or After Christ) are terms that are no longer used.

IOne now has to use BCE for Before the Common/Current/Christian Era (an alternative to Before Christ, abbreviated BC), and Common Era (also Current Era or Christian Era), abbreviated as CE, instead of Anno Domini (abbreviated AD).



TBH ................. I find it extremely difficult to believe the Bible.

My scientific mind just cannot accept many of the things said in there ............. for example, that the earth was built in 7 days.


What I CAN do is believe that the story tellers used the word "day" because there listeners (usually completely uneducated) understood what a day was. They would have had no conception of what 100 years was, let alone 1 million years. Not that the story tellers would have had much more comprehension of that sort of time scale!

I apply the same sort of suspension of my training to understand other parts of the Bible, but I cannot believe what is there as being literally true!

Vera. I was told this also (Nazareth not Bethlehem) this weekend. Based on the following "facts", it appears:
1. Jesus was born 4 BC.
2. No census in 4BC.

However, I take all that with a pinch of salt. The Romans loved having censuses (wonder if Ancestry or GR have got any of these from Israel at that time?)

It was true that Herod (a Jew) was very keen to impress his Emperor and kept having censuses. Usually they were, like we have, at their place of residence. But I think also he was fond of sending people back to their home towns.

So the roads would occasionally have been full of families passing each other on their way to register in those years.

Might he have called all the tribe of David (including Joseph of Nazareth back to their home village of Bethlehem? Herod would have been aware there was an imminent threat to his family's kingship of Israel in the old Jewish prophesies written hundreds of years before. He would then have had a reliable register of all the line of David and could then start on his policy of targetting and killing all babies from the royal family of the psalmist David up to the age of 2. In his mind, to protect his family's right (under the Roman Emperor) to govern the land into eternity.

We looked at this atrocity incidentally this weekend (just very briefly) from a Roman soldier's point of view. I felt as sad for him as I did for the slaughtered babies. And those sort of orders are still given to soldiers in 2013.

The titles of the Roman Emperor that were widely used in Jerusalem were interesting. He was called "The Son of God", "the Sun of Righteousness", "the King of Kings". Now today, in North Korea...................................................

Have just read the link to that new book by Pope Benedict. It is a lot of what I thought!!! And a huge number have been sold.

Now I find myself in agreement about the true Christmas story with a Canon from Chester Cathedral and a Pope. And me a simple Methodist lay person.

Did Christmas use to be much more than a Christmas Mass before Prince Albert and Charles Dickens, I wonder. Just reading a book about servants in 1860's in London. Their families upstairs (not a huge percentage of population) used to enjoy their Christmas with family attendance at church compulsory and a large lunch of goose or occasionally turkey. It was a Mass in the church calendar, after all.

But I note servants (two thirds of employed females) stayed in situ and did exactly the same as they did any other day of the year. I cannot see any evidence of cards and presents, just cleaning the front steps, clearing the slops away and then (often with no proof of handwashing) making breakfast for master or mistress. Have now got to 1867, and presumably things changed soon after that - we shall see.

In this particular household, a German girl was taken on. And that Christmas, all the other servants were amazed to see lots of cakes, sweets and paper cut out and festooned round the servant's parlour. And they each got a present off Clara. She had stolen the money (it later emerged) and the servants were uneasy with all this revelry, even before they knew she had been fiddling with their money and private things. "Make sure mistress does not come downstairs and see what Clara has been wasting her money on" was one comment.

Now we can all be "upper class" and celebrate Christmas. Yet how sad it is (to me) that so many forget the true celebration and want to celebrate like Clara - often taking the money from Barclaycard or Wonga to fund sheer unnecessary extravagance. Because they feel their friends and family expect them to spend wastefully.

I do feel cards and presents and decorations are lovely, but not to be worshipped or to be essential. 10 posts a day, a home made card and a penny to post made cards affordable in late Victorian times. But 50p to post, an expensive card and Royal Mail threatening strikes every Christmas makes it less pleasurable. And keeping lists of "who has not posted a card to me for last 2 years, I will strike them off" is probably not what Jesus would have done with his friends. :-) Christ's Mass. All are very welcome, and some churches even open their doors still on Christmas Day to receive your best present of all. Your presence at this Mass to celebrate his birth in Bethlehem. How he would love you to be there with him.

Have had internet problems so have not been on line much the last few days and I am just catching up on the thread.

I pop in nearly every day but don't post very often so thank you to all you regular posters who keep the thread going.

I was interested in John's post of 8th December about the facts/fiction of the nativity story. I knew much of what John has written but not all. A few days ago I turned on the radio and caught the end of a discussion on this theme. I had never realised that it is believed that Jesus was born in Nazareth, not Bethlehem. As I switched on just as the programme was finishing I never learnt the evidence for this.

A lovely bright sunny day here in Yorkshire this morning, quite fresh but thankfully I have a warm coat, good shoes and hat, scarf and gloves to keep me warm.

Cynthia, I was interested to read the extended verse as I am only familiar with the first four lines and never knew the author either, learn something new every day. Thank you.

John, I hope your spiritual batteries are recharged from your retreat, thanks for sharing the subject although I have read this several years ago, it is important.

Day 9 from my Advent calendar:

Joseph went up from Nazareth to Bethlehem with Mary. Luke 2: 4-5.

Glad it went well yesterday, Cynthia. I still flip and flap when asked to do new things (and plenty of that this last weekend on my study course) but hopefully we gain the ability to flit and flap off stage. But look as calm as a cucumber on stage, as if we were born to serve congregations and nothing ever goes wrong off-stage, so to speak.

I am reading about the Rossettis at present (Dante, William and Christina). What a talented family, although plenty of flittin and flappin off stage :-D

This hymn from Christina is lovely at this time of year:

Love came down at Christmas,
Love all lovely, Love divine;
Love was born at Christmas,
Stars and angels gave the sign.

Worship we the Godhead,
Love incarnate, Love divine;
Worship we our Jesus:
But wherewith for sacred sign?

Love shall be our token,
Love be yours and love be mine,
Love to God and all the world,
Love for plea and gift and sign.

Good morning everyone.......I hope you are all well.


Church went quite well yesterday with reasonable congregations. A bit of 'flapping' and 'flitting' by some - mainly because they are new to their roles, but we managed fine. Next week we have the Sunday School nativity to look forward to and we are also having some new pew cushions dedicated in memory of our late vicar.


I thought I would share the following familiar prayer with you - in it's entirety!


God grant me the
Serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can, and the
Wisdom to know the difference.
Living one day at a time;
Enjoying one moment at a time;
Accepting hardship as the pathway to peace.
Taking, as He did,
This sinful world as it is ...
Not as I would have it.
Trusting that He will make all things right
If I surrender to His Will;
That I may be reasonably happy in this life,
And supremely happy with Him
Forever in the next.

Amen

~ Reinhold Neibuhr ~



Enjoy your day Cx :-)

Hello everyone. Thank you for your posting Ann.....it's something I have seen before and there is a lot of truth in it.

As for John and his statements, those too, I have heard before and they are points which have been debated by scholars for many years.

I think that, so often, we all maintain a childhood image of the stable with the 3 wise men and shepherds etc. but it can rather over simplify reality and make it very sentimental.

Nowhere in scripture does it say about 3 wise men but it DOES say that 3 gifts were presented. Also, scripture does tell us that Jesus was not an infant but a young child living in a house when these gifts were presented. When I put my nativity scene out, I don't put the baby into the crib until Christmas Day and the Wise men stay firmly in the background and are brought forward at Epiphany.


There are many websites which discuss these points and, only last year, Pope Benedict had a book published on the very subjects described by John.

I rather like the (then) Pope's response to his critics....

Should these discrepancies bother Christians?

The pope says no. "The aim of the evangelists was not to produce an exhaustive account," he writes, "but a record of what seemed important for the nascent faith community in the light of the word."

The Nativity story emphasizes Christ's humility, and the wonder of God taking on human form. The accounts of Jesus' life are not intended as histories, said Bart D. Ehrman, a professor of religious studies at the University of North Carolina, but as gospels — "proclamations of the good news." The true meaning of Christmas, he says, lies not in "what really did happen," but in "what really does happen, in the lives of those who believe that stories such as these can convey a greater truth."


This is a link to another thread which discusses the above:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2236195/New-Jesus-book-reveals-donkeys-crib-lowing-oxen-definitely-carols-Christmas.html

Hope this helps :-)

Ann. Sorry to upset you. Purpose was not to upset, but there is a big gap between the Bible account and the traditions that have arisen over the centuries. Everything I have put is either in the Bible or implied in the Bible. But it will not stop me singing "Away in a Manger" or other carols based on tradition rather than fact. I will just be happy if a few more people this year remember Christmas is primarily a religious Mass for Christ rather than a mass of commercialism.

If you can find a donkey carrying Mary, or anywhere where it says there were wise men, that they were kings or that there were 3 magi, I will apologise and remove.

The actual Bible story is far more wonderful in my view than the way it is presented in most school plays.

John, are you quoting what you have been told this weekend, or what you already know. Either way, where are the references to back up what you are saying which goes against the teaching of churches through the years.

I have been away on a weekend retreat in Herefordshire and the course leader has been Canon Trevor Dennis of Chester Cathedral. WSonderful weekend and really looking at all the Old Testament promises about the nativity story. "God contracted to a span, incomprehensibly made man".

There was no donkey - Mary walked 67 miles, very young (not that much older than these litte girls in school nativity plays). and very pregnant.
There were no wise men called Snap Crackle and Pop, or Melchior etc etc. There were magi (nobody knows how many) who came to find the baby and went to the wrong place and alerted King Herod to the prophesy of a baby being born in Bethlehem at about that time who would be a King of Israel. Hence the mass slaughter of young babies that ensued.
There was no inn. The word in the original means guest room (inside a house)
There was no stable.
There would have been a midwife and village women to help her labour, not shepherds (however washed and hygienic they were).

Canon Dennis opened our eyes to the true story - which is far more wonderful than those nativity plays that we all had fun enacting and now watching our children and grandchildren perform.

Haven't caught up yet, but did notice that kandj had explained the Christingle orange. Wonderful - and one of the memories I shall take to my grave is one such service in Ely Cathedral in late 1980's. My little daughter and hundreds of other with big smiles carrying an orange with candles in the darkness of that unlit and massive Cathedral. :-) :-)

Very deep and profound Ann but also very true and scary too when Christians feel we have to explain the deep happiness that our faith and Christmas gives to us.

Day 8 of my religious Advent Calendar:

He will save his people from their sins. Matthew 1:21.