Find Ancestors

Hello
Looking to follow my Harvey line.
Thomas was born 14th Oct 1873 in Toxteth Park. His parents on the birth certificate found on Ancestry were James Harvey ( Seaman Merchant Service) and Alice Harvey formerly Morrow or Horrow?? living at 13 Pleasant Hill Street, Toxteth Park.

The 1881 census states James to be a British Subject born Guernsey abt 1852 and Alice born in Liverpool.

The 1891 census states James was born in Southampton.

I am unsure where to go from here as I am unable to find a marriage or find a birth for James. I have looked on familysearch for this.

Thank you

Thomas Harvey

in the 1881 England Census

Name Thomas Harvey
Age 8
Estimated Birth Year abt 1873
Relationship to Head Son
Father James Harvey
Mother Alice Harvey
Gender Male
Where born Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Civil parish Toxteth Park
County/Island Lancashire
Country England
Street Address 172 Grafton St
Occupation Scholar
Registration district Toxteth Park
ED, institution, or vessel 24
Neighbors
Piece 3638
Folio 138
Page number 14
Household Members (Name) Age Relationship
James Harvey 29 Head
Alice Harvey 30 Wife
Eliza Harvey 10 Daughter
Thomas Harvey 8 Son
Alice Harvey 5 Daughter

Have you looked for the Mrchant Navy records - possiby also on Family Search. FMP have the MN records from the National Archives.

Guernsey records are not always the easist and FS is probably the best place. HAve you found James on the 1861 census? Harvey is not a particularly Guernsey surname and it is possible that his father was a sailor or a soldier.

Added: a tree on Ancestry has James as Nicholas James Harvey - wife Alice Fearon). There is a marriage oin 1892 of Thomas James Harvey the father is named as Nicholas James Harvey a Dockk labourer. The address for Thomas, a sailor, is 101 Beaufort St.

Thank you

No, I have found nothing before the birth of Thomas in 1873 :-(

Thomas's baptism record gives his mother's surname as Morris - but then it has Thomas's surname as Hardy!:

Thomas James Hardy
in the Liverpool, England, Catholic Baptisms, 1741-1919
Name Thomas James Hardy [Harvey]
Age 0
Birth Date 14 Oct 1873
Baptism Date 2 Nov 1873
Baptism Place St Vincent de Paul, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Father Jacobi Hardy
Mother Alicia Morris


Birth of his sister Alice (in the censuses you mention):

HARVEY, ALICE RACHEL mmn MORRIS
GRO Reference: 1876 M Quarter in WEST DERBY & TOXTETH PARK Volume 08B Page 264

His older sister Eliza[beth] ?

MORRIS, ELIZABETH -
GRO Reference: 1872 M Quarter in WEST DERBY AND TOXTETH PARK Volume 08B Page 255


Is this your Thomas's marriage - with father Nicholas James - unless that's another mistake??

Thomas James Harvey
in the Liverpool, England, Church of England Marriages and Banns, 1754-1935
Name Thomas James Harvey
Gender Male
Marriage Age 19
Event Type Marriage
Birth Year abt 1873
Marriage Date 16 Aug 1892
Marriage Place Toxteth, St Thomas, Lancashire, England
Phillimore Ecclesiastical Parish Map
View this parish
Father Nicholos James Harvey <<<<< dock labourer
Spouse Charlotts Aird


However, I don't see James's marriage to Alice.
Perhaps he wasn't married.

Alice probably died in 1881.
I don't see a marriage to Johanna either - his "wife" in 1891 census.

In 1901 James is called John James - and again born in Guernsey:

John James Harvey
in the 1901 England Census
Name John James Harvey
Age 59
Estimated Birth Year abt 1842
Relation to Head Head
Gender Male
Spouse Johanna Harvey
Birth Place Guernsey, Channel Islands
Civil parish Toxteth Park
Search Photos
View blank form
Ecclesiastical parish St Cleopas
County/Island Lancashire
Country England
Registration district Toxteth Park
Sub-registration district Toxteth Park
ED, institution, or vessel 027
Neighbors
Piece 3430
Folio 11
Page number 13
Household schedule number 76
Household Members (Name) Age Relationship
John James Harvey 59 Head - dock labourer
Johanna Harvey 57 Wife
Alice Harvey 24 Daughter
Patrick Hanlan 40 Boarder
James Marman 36 Boarder
Patrick Hindes 23 Boarder

His death and burial ?? He's lost a few years in age:

John James Harvey
in the England & Scotland, Select Cemetery Registers, 1800-2022
Name John James Harvey
Age 58
Record Type Burial
Birth Date abt 1849
Death Date abt 1907
Burial Date 17 Feb 1907
Burial Place Merseyside, England
Cemetery Toxteth Park Cemetery
Cemetery Section Church of England



John James Harvey
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1837-1915
Name John James Harvey
Age 58
Estimated Birth Year abt 1849
Registration Quarter Jan-Feb-Mar
Death Registration Place Toxteth Park, Lancashire, United Kingdom
Death Date Mar 1907
Inferred Death Place Lancashire, United Kingdom
Volume 8b
Page 133


Probably Johanna's death :

Deaths Dec 1901 (>99%)
Harvey Johanna 54 Toxteth Park 8b 133

So 42 not 52? Have you found his death, which might give a better indication of when he was born.

I do think his seaman’s record is important but I am not a expert on the merchant marine.

Edit: we crossed. The estimated dates are a. It of a wide range. I did look at the 1850 census but didn’t spot him on that.

There are several travel records (1868-71) for this man, born 1845-47:

James Harvey
in the Liverpool, England, Crew Lists 1861-1919
Name James Harvey
Age 24
Birth Year abt 1847
Birth Place Guernsey
Event Date 1871
Port of Registry Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Ship Name Augustine
Official Number 54916
Reference Number 387CRE/84

In 1871, he was on various crew lists from Feb to May - so missed being on the census, which was on 2 April.


EDIT:
He was previously on the Ambrose, then on the Augustine

Thank you very much

Alice and eldest daughter Elizabeth in 1871:

Alice Harvey
in the 1871 England Census
Name Alice Harvey
Age 23
Estimated Birth Year 1848
Relation Lodger
Gender Female
Where born Ireland
Civil parish Toxteth Park
Ecclesiastical parish St Mathew
Town Liverpool
County/Island Lancashire
Country England
Registration district West Derby
Sub-registration district Toxteth Park
ED, institution, or vessel 13
Household schedule number 209
Piece 3795
Folio 107
Page number 47
Household Members (Name) Age Relationship
John Hunter 29 Head
Julia Lankel 22 Niece
Harriett Lindsey 14
Phillip Smith 49 Lodger
Alice Harvey 23 Lodger, married, servant
Elizabeth Harvey 1/12 Lodger

(and other fellow lodgers)

Thank you

CLIP's-records of British merchant seafarers of the late 19th and early 20th century.

If you would like to have a look at the record/ship ArgyllGran referred to at 29 May 2024 18:49

You can find out about the ship and crew, here:

https://www.crewlist.org.uk/data/vesselsnum?officialnumber=54916

That's great, thank you :-D

FMP result- I am aware ArgyllGran posted this earlier at 29 May 2024 18:26
I didn't see an Irish reference on her post

Could they have married in Ireland, hence the lack of marriage evidence??

1901 England, Wales & Scotland Census
12, Paulton Street, Toxteth Park, Lancashire, England

John James Harvey Head Married Male 59 1842 Dock labourer Guernsey, Channel Islands
Johnna Harvey Wife Married Female 57 1844 - Ireland ***********
Alice Harvey Daughter Single Female 24 1877 - Liverpool, Lancashire, England
+ Boarders

AG what do you think??

I suspect it's more likely Johanna travelled to Liverpool from Ireland and met J.J in Liverpool

It's possible - though no record of it on irishgenealogy.ie - not that that means much.

1871 census says that Alice also was born in Ireland, but later censuses say Liverpool.
I don't see any obvious sign of either - but who knows?!

The daughter Edith W Harvey on the 1891 census is a mystery. Where is she in 1881?


And the middle initial K for Alice junior in 1891 should be R, if the birth I posted earlier is the right one.


James Harvey
in the 1891 England Census
Name James Harvey
Gender Male
Age 42
Relationship Head
Birth Year 1849
Spouse
Johanna Harvey
Mary Harvey
Child
Elizabeth Harvey
Thomas Harvey
Alice K Harvey
Edith W Harvey

Birth Place Southampton
Civil parish Toxteth Park
Residence Place Toxteth Park, Lancashire, England
Registration district Toxteth Park
Sub registration district Toxteth Park
ED, Institution or Vessel 43
Neighbors
Piece 2931
Folio 98
Household Members (Name) Age Relationship
James Harvey 42 Head
Johanna Harvey 40 Wife - Ireland
Elizabeth Harvey 20 Daughter - Liverpool
Thomas Harvey 18 Son - Liverpool
Alice K Harvey 16 Daughter - Liverpool
Edith W Harvey 14 Daughter - Liverpool

Thanks again....much appreciated :-)

James/John James Harvey born abt 1847 in Guernsey. Anywhere online I might look for his birth record?

If you haven’t found it on FS the probably the only way is to contact the Priaulx Library ( where the records are kept ) and pay for a search.

If he is a Guernsey native records will be in French, if he is English then the record should be on English.

The census on Guernsey is part of the UK census so he should be found on the 1850 onwards.

Added: paying for a search could be expensive, if memory serves me correct then each Bailiwick is indexed seperately.

Thank you :-)