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Paul
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29 May 2024 17:30 |
Hello Looking to follow my Harvey line. Thomas was born 14th Oct 1873 in Toxteth Park. His parents on the birth certificate found on Ancestry were James Harvey ( Seaman Merchant Service) and Alice Harvey formerly Morrow or Horrow?? living at 13 Pleasant Hill Street, Toxteth Park.
The 1881 census states James to be a British Subject born Guernsey abt 1852 and Alice born in Liverpool.
The 1891 census states James was born in Southampton.
I am unsure where to go from here as I am unable to find a marriage or find a birth for James. I have looked on familysearch for this.
Thank you
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Paul
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29 May 2024 17:54 |
Thomas Harvey
in the 1881 England Census
Name Thomas Harvey Age 8 Estimated Birth Year abt 1873 Relationship to Head Son Father James Harvey Mother Alice Harvey Gender Male Where born Liverpool, Lancashire, England Civil parish Toxteth Park County/Island Lancashire Country England Street Address 172 Grafton St Occupation Scholar Registration district Toxteth Park ED, institution, or vessel 24 Neighbors Piece 3638 Folio 138 Page number 14 Household Members (Name) Age Relationship James Harvey 29 Head Alice Harvey 30 Wife Eliza Harvey 10 Daughter Thomas Harvey 8 Son Alice Harvey 5 Daughter
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nameslessone
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29 May 2024 18:03 |
Have you looked for the Mrchant Navy records - possiby also on Family Search. FMP have the MN records from the National Archives.
Guernsey records are not always the easist and FS is probably the best place. HAve you found James on the 1861 census? Harvey is not a particularly Guernsey surname and it is possible that his father was a sailor or a soldier.
Added: a tree on Ancestry has James as Nicholas James Harvey - wife Alice Fearon). There is a marriage oin 1892 of Thomas James Harvey the father is named as Nicholas James Harvey a Dockk labourer. The address for Thomas, a sailor, is 101 Beaufort St.
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Paul
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29 May 2024 18:08 |
Thank you
No, I have found nothing before the birth of Thomas in 1873 :-(
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ArgyllGran
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29 May 2024 18:10 |
Thomas's baptism record gives his mother's surname as Morris - but then it has Thomas's surname as Hardy!:
Thomas James Hardy in the Liverpool, England, Catholic Baptisms, 1741-1919 Name Thomas James Hardy [Harvey] Age 0 Birth Date 14 Oct 1873 Baptism Date 2 Nov 1873 Baptism Place St Vincent de Paul, Liverpool, Lancashire, England Father Jacobi Hardy Mother Alicia Morris
Birth of his sister Alice (in the censuses you mention):
HARVEY, ALICE RACHEL mmn MORRIS GRO Reference: 1876 M Quarter in WEST DERBY & TOXTETH PARK Volume 08B Page 264
His older sister Eliza[beth] ?
MORRIS, ELIZABETH - GRO Reference: 1872 M Quarter in WEST DERBY AND TOXTETH PARK Volume 08B Page 255
Is this your Thomas's marriage - with father Nicholas James - unless that's another mistake??
Thomas James Harvey in the Liverpool, England, Church of England Marriages and Banns, 1754-1935 Name Thomas James Harvey Gender Male Marriage Age 19 Event Type Marriage Birth Year abt 1873 Marriage Date 16 Aug 1892 Marriage Place Toxteth, St Thomas, Lancashire, England Phillimore Ecclesiastical Parish Map View this parish Father Nicholos James Harvey <<<<< dock labourer Spouse Charlotts Aird
However, I don't see James's marriage to Alice. Perhaps he wasn't married.
Alice probably died in 1881. I don't see a marriage to Johanna either - his "wife" in 1891 census.
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ArgyllGran
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29 May 2024 18:26 |
In 1901 James is called John James - and again born in Guernsey:
John James Harvey in the 1901 England Census Name John James Harvey Age 59 Estimated Birth Year abt 1842 Relation to Head Head Gender Male Spouse Johanna Harvey Birth Place Guernsey, Channel Islands Civil parish Toxteth Park Search Photos View blank form Ecclesiastical parish St Cleopas County/Island Lancashire Country England Registration district Toxteth Park Sub-registration district Toxteth Park ED, institution, or vessel 027 Neighbors Piece 3430 Folio 11 Page number 13 Household schedule number 76 Household Members (Name) Age Relationship John James Harvey 59 Head - dock labourer Johanna Harvey 57 Wife Alice Harvey 24 Daughter Patrick Hanlan 40 Boarder James Marman 36 Boarder Patrick Hindes 23 Boarder
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ArgyllGran
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29 May 2024 18:33 |
His death and burial ?? He's lost a few years in age:
John James Harvey in the England & Scotland, Select Cemetery Registers, 1800-2022 Name John James Harvey Age 58 Record Type Burial Birth Date abt 1849 Death Date abt 1907 Burial Date 17 Feb 1907 Burial Place Merseyside, England Cemetery Toxteth Park Cemetery Cemetery Section Church of England
John James Harvey in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1837-1915 Name John James Harvey Age 58 Estimated Birth Year abt 1849 Registration Quarter Jan-Feb-Mar Death Registration Place Toxteth Park, Lancashire, United Kingdom Death Date Mar 1907 Inferred Death Place Lancashire, United Kingdom Volume 8b Page 133
Probably Johanna's death :
Deaths Dec 1901 (>99%) Harvey Johanna 54 Toxteth Park 8b 133
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nameslessone
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29 May 2024 18:33 |
So 42 not 52? Have you found his death, which might give a better indication of when he was born.
I do think his seaman’s record is important but I am not a expert on the merchant marine.
Edit: we crossed. The estimated dates are a. It of a wide range. I did look at the 1850 census but didn’t spot him on that.
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ArgyllGran
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29 May 2024 18:49 |
There are several travel records (1868-71) for this man, born 1845-47:
James Harvey in the Liverpool, England, Crew Lists 1861-1919 Name James Harvey Age 24 Birth Year abt 1847 Birth Place Guernsey Event Date 1871 Port of Registry Liverpool, Lancashire, England Ship Name Augustine Official Number 54916 Reference Number 387CRE/84
In 1871, he was on various crew lists from Feb to May - so missed being on the census, which was on 2 April.
EDIT: He was previously on the Ambrose, then on the Augustine
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Paul
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29 May 2024 18:56 |
Thank you very much
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ArgyllGran
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29 May 2024 19:08 |
Alice and eldest daughter Elizabeth in 1871:
Alice Harvey in the 1871 England Census Name Alice Harvey Age 23 Estimated Birth Year 1848 Relation Lodger Gender Female Where born Ireland Civil parish Toxteth Park Ecclesiastical parish St Mathew Town Liverpool County/Island Lancashire Country England Registration district West Derby Sub-registration district Toxteth Park ED, institution, or vessel 13 Household schedule number 209 Piece 3795 Folio 107 Page number 47 Household Members (Name) Age Relationship John Hunter 29 Head Julia Lankel 22 Niece Harriett Lindsey 14 Phillip Smith 49 Lodger Alice Harvey 23 Lodger, married, servant Elizabeth Harvey 1/12 Lodger
(and other fellow lodgers)
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Paul
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29 May 2024 20:05 |
Thank you
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Jink20
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29 May 2024 20:52 |
CLIP's-records of British merchant seafarers of the late 19th and early 20th century.
If you would like to have a look at the record/ship ArgyllGran referred to at 29 May 2024 18:49
You can find out about the ship and crew, here:
https://www.crewlist.org.uk/data/vesselsnum?officialnumber=54916
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Paul
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29 May 2024 20:57 |
That's great, thank you :-D
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Jink20
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29 May 2024 21:22 |
FMP result- I am aware ArgyllGran posted this earlier at 29 May 2024 18:26 I didn't see an Irish reference on her post
Could they have married in Ireland, hence the lack of marriage evidence?? 1901 England, Wales & Scotland Census 12, Paulton Street, Toxteth Park, Lancashire, England
John James Harvey Head Married Male 59 1842 Dock labourer Guernsey, Channel Islands Johnna Harvey Wife Married Female 57 1844 - Ireland *********** Alice Harvey Daughter Single Female 24 1877 - Liverpool, Lancashire, England + Boarders
AG what do you think??
I suspect it's more likely Johanna travelled to Liverpool from Ireland and met J.J in Liverpool
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ArgyllGran
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29 May 2024 21:57 |
It's possible - though no record of it on irishgenealogy.ie - not that that means much.
1871 census says that Alice also was born in Ireland, but later censuses say Liverpool. I don't see any obvious sign of either - but who knows?!
The daughter Edith W Harvey on the 1891 census is a mystery. Where is she in 1881?
And the middle initial K for Alice junior in 1891 should be R, if the birth I posted earlier is the right one.
James Harvey in the 1891 England Census Name James Harvey Gender Male Age 42 Relationship Head Birth Year 1849 Spouse Johanna Harvey Mary Harvey Child Elizabeth Harvey Thomas Harvey Alice K Harvey Edith W Harvey
Birth Place Southampton Civil parish Toxteth Park Residence Place Toxteth Park, Lancashire, England Registration district Toxteth Park Sub registration district Toxteth Park ED, Institution or Vessel 43 Neighbors Piece 2931 Folio 98 Household Members (Name) Age Relationship James Harvey 42 Head Johanna Harvey 40 Wife - Ireland Elizabeth Harvey 20 Daughter - Liverpool Thomas Harvey 18 Son - Liverpool Alice K Harvey 16 Daughter - Liverpool Edith W Harvey 14 Daughter - Liverpool
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Paul
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30 May 2024 10:51 |
Thanks again....much appreciated :-)
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Paul
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30 May 2024 11:21 |
James/John James Harvey born abt 1847 in Guernsey. Anywhere online I might look for his birth record?
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nameslessone
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30 May 2024 11:42 |
If you haven’t found it on FS the probably the only way is to contact the Priaulx Library ( where the records are kept ) and pay for a search.
If he is a Guernsey native records will be in French, if he is English then the record should be on English.
The census on Guernsey is part of the UK census so he should be found on the 1850 onwards.
Added: paying for a search could be expensive, if memory serves me correct then each Bailiwick is indexed seperately.
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Paul
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30 May 2024 11:49 |
Thank you :-)
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