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I meant 'someone' doing research....not the registrar, or vicar ;-) ;-)

Sorry, should have been more specific :-S :-S

I had wondered that too, ErikaH.

However, I can't find an Ann* Smith with father Peter in 1861, nor one whose father Peter had died before the census.

Has someone confused Annie’s father’s forename with that of Joseph’s father?

Perhaps a double-check of previous research would prove useful ;-) ;-) ;-)

Graham -

Annie Hughes (nee Smiith) was definitely born in or near Belper.

The 1881 census says she was born in Cromford, Derbyshire. (Approx 8 miles from Belper)
1891 says she was born in Belper.

Annie & Joseph's marriage record says Joseph's father was Peter.
There is no documentary suggestion that Joseph's father was Henry.

Graham

No proof yet that Henry is the father of the Joseph in question................look at the marriage record I posted on page one

Hi ArgyllGran. Hmm I was of the view that Annie Smith was from Belper but as you say this Ann Smith seems about 3 years older and if she indeed married an Alfred Yeomans then it cant be her! Thx Graham :)

Many thanks greyghost thats really great research! Back to 1841 for the 1st time in terms of location and you have identified Elizabeth's maiden name as Gill which we did not know! Also the fact that Elizabeth came from Croglin in Cumberland! I now have conflicting information though on whether Henry came from Barton or Burton in Cheshire? But sounds like the early 19th century story of farm workers migrating from the countryside into a booming Victorian Liverpool for work! Thx Graham :-)

Annie seems to be a bit of a mystery, too.

According to her marriage cert in 1879, her father was Henry Smith, a tailor.

This would appear to be her in 1871. (In 1861 they're in Belper.)

Ann Smith
in the 1871 England Census
Name Ann Smith
Age 14
Estimated Birth Year 1857
Relation Daughter
Gender Female
Where born Belper, Derbyshire, England
Civil parish Tutbury
County/Island Staffordshire
Country England
Registration district Burton Upon Trent
Sub-registration district Tutbury
ED, institution, or vessel 11
Household schedule number 183
Piece 2897
Folio 66
Page number 36
Household Members (Name) Age Relationship
Henry Smith 46 Head - Tailor <<<<<<<<<<<
Ann Smith 43 Wife [ nee Bennett ]
James Smith 17 Son
Ann Smith 14 Daughter
Hannah Smith 11 Daughter
Daniel Smith 9 Son
Elizabeth Smith 7 Daughter
Millicent Smith 3 Daughter
William Connor 25 Visitor
Harriet Connor 19 Visitor
Thomas Connor 2/12 Son


But that can't be her. This would be that Ann's marriage - and she's about 3 years older than your Annie in any case:

Ann Smith
in the Staffordshire, England, Church of England Marriages and Banns, 1754-1900
Name Ann Smith
Marriage Age 20
Record Type Marriage
Birth Date abt 1856
Residence Place Tutbury
Marriage Date 19 Aug 1876
Marriage Place Tutbury, St Mary, Staffordshire, England
Father Henry Smith
Spouse Alfred Yeomans
Religion Anglican

She's with Alfred and children in 1881 and 1891, in Newton, Lancs. - so can't simultaneously be Joseph's wife.

IF Joseph Inkerman Hughes is the same person as your Joseph, he must have both married and been widowed between 1871 and 1879, not to mention meeting and wooing Annie.

Useful site for Lancashire

https://www.lan-opc.org.uk/Search/indexp.html

Banns: St George, Derby Square, Liverpool, Lancashire
Henry Hughes - Labourer, Villars St
Elizabeth Gill - Spinster, Bold St
First Reading: 25 Sep 1831; Read By: Rev J B Monk
Second Reading: 2 Oct 1831; Read By: Rev J G Leigh
Third Reading: 9 Oct 1831; Read By: Rev J B Monk
Notes: Married 16 Oct 1831, Groom resident for 15 mths, Bride resident for 9mths
Register: Banns of Marriage 1825 - 1876, Page 20, Entry 58
Source: LDS Film 1656195

Marriage: 16 Oct 1831 St George, Derby Square, Liverpool, Lancashire
Henry Hughes - Labourer, Liverpool
Elizabeth Gill - Spinster, Liverpool
Witnesses: Elizabeth Kneil (X); James Ireland (X)
Married by Banns by John Boughey
Register: Marriages 1813 - 1837, Page 44, Entry 130
Source: LDS Film 1656195

??

Name: Mother's Maiden Surname:
HUGHES, JOSEPH INKERMAN GILL
GRO Reference: 1855 M Quarter in WEST DERBY Volume 08B Page 407

HUGHES, ELIZABETH GILL
GRO Reference: 1850 J Quarter in LIVERPOOL Volume 20

HUGHES, ISAAC GILL
GRO Reference: 1847 D Quarter in LIVERPOOL Volume 20 Page 429

HUGHES, THOMAS GILL
GRO Reference: 1845 D Quarter in LIVERPOOL Volume 20 Page 447


?? Banns
Lancashire Banns & Marriages
Liverpool, St George, Lancashire, England
First name(s) Henry
Last name Hughes
Residence St George, Liverpool
Year 1831
Banns year 1831
Banns date 25 Sep 1831
Spouse's first name(s) Elizabeth
Spouse's last name Gill
Spouse's residence St George Liverpool
Marriage year 1831
Marriage date 16 Oct 1831
Description St George
Place Liverpool, St George
Denomination Church Of England
Archive Liverpool Record Office
Archive reference 283-GEO-5-1
Register year range 1825-1877
Register type Banns
Record set Lancashire Banns & Marriages
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Parish Marriages
Diocese Liverpool
Collections from England, Great Britain
County Lancashire
Country England

From original - - read 25 Sept, 2 & 9th October.
Henry of Villars Street ????? Labourer
Elizabeth of ? Bold Street ???? Spinster

Villars Street - address 1832 baptism of son William

????? - unable to decipher meaning - but see the Lancsopc record, Henry resident 15 months and Elizabeth 9 months

=====================
?? MARRIAGE
Lancashire Banns & Marriages
Liverpool, St George, Lancashire, England

First name(s) Henry
Last name Hughes
Occupation Labourer
Residence Liverpool
Spouse's first name(s) Elizabeth
Spouse's last name Gill
Spouse's marital status Spinster
Spouse's residence Liverpool
Year 1831
Marriage year 1831
Marriage date 17 Oct 1831
Description St George
Place Liverpool, St George
Diocese Liverpool
Witness 1 Elizabeth Kneil
Witness 2 James Ireland
Liverpool Record Office
By licence or banns Banns
Denomination Church Of England
Archive reference 283-GEO-3-3
Register year range 1813-1837
Register type Marriages
Record set Lancashire Banns & Marriages
County Lancashire
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Country England
Subcategory Parish Marriages

1851 England, Wales & Scotland Census
Holborn Street, West Derby, Lancashire, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Henry Hughes Head Married Male 42 1809 Warehouse man superintendent Burton, Cheshire, England
Elizabeth Hughes Wife Married Female 39 1812 - Croglin, Cumberland, England
William Hughes Son Unmarried Male 18 1833 Office boy Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Henry Hughes Son - Male 12 1839 Scholar Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Thomas Hughes Son - Male 5 1846 - Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Isaac Hughes Son - Male 3 1848 - Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Elizabeth Hughes Daughter - Female 0 1851 - Liverpool, Lancashire, England

Elizabeth is aged 9 months

-----------------
So is this the family in 1841 - at Shaw Hill which would go with the address at the time of Henry's baptism

1841 England, Wales & Scotland Census
Shaw Hill Street, Liverpool, Lancashire, England

First name(s) Last name Sex Age Birth year Birth place
Henry Hughes Male 30 1811 - Labourer
William Hughes Male 8 1833 -
Henry Hughes Male 3 1838 -
Elizabeth Hughes Female 28 1813 -
Mary Ann Hughes Female 0 1841 -

Many thanks ArgyllGran that is the furthest back record we have to date! Really appreciate that. So I have discovered from you that Henry Hughes was born in Barton Cheshire in 1811. That is a new fact that we didnt know. I wonder if there is a way to find a record of his marriage to Elizabeth which would have taken place around 1830. Many thanks again! :-)

Henry Hughes
in the 1851 England Census
Name Henry Hughes
Age 42
Estimated Birth Year abt 1809
Relation Head
Spouse's Name Elizabeth Hughes
Gender Male
Where born Barton, Cheshire, England
Civil parish West Derby
County/Island Lancashire
Country England
Registration district West Derby
Sub-registration district West Derby
ED, institution, or vessel 1c
Neighbors
Household schedule number 188
Piece 2192
Folio 102
Page number 44
Household Members (Name) Age Relationship
Henry Hughes 42 Head
Elizabeth Hughes 39 Wife
William Hughes 18 Son
Henry Hughes 12 Son
Thomas Hughes 5 Son
Isaac Hughes 3 Son
Elizabeth Hughes 9 Mo Daughter


Son William's christening in 1832. At that time they were living in Villiers Street, and Henry was a warehouseman:

.William Hughes
in the Lancashire, England, Church of England Births and Baptisms, 1813-1911
Name William Hughes
Baptism Date 26 Dec 1832
Parish Liverpool, St Peter, Lancashire, England
Father Henry Hughes
Mother Elizabeth Hughes
Register Type Bishop's Transcripts
Reference Number Drl/2/292



In 1838 they were at Shaw Hill, and Henry was still a warehouseman:

Henry Hughes
in the Liverpool, England, Church of England Baptisms, 1813-1919
Name Henry Hughes
Baptism Date 11 Nov 1838
Baptism Place Liverpool, St Peter, Lancashire, England
Parish as it Appears Liverpool, St Peter
Father Henry Hughes
Mother Elizabeth Hughes


I don't see the family in 1841.

IF Joseph Inkerman Hughes (son of Henry) is your Joseph - he was a paver (roadman) in 1871

I suppose it's not impossible that he could have become a bill poster by 1879.

Thanks ErikaH. I am confused as to why Joseph Senior would list his fathers name as Peter. We are pretty Confident it is Henry Hughes from Liverpool as shown in other replies in the trail and my brothers research. Henrys occupation was listed in the 1851 Census as a labourer. Henry's family had fallen on hard times. Perhaps he was ashamed of his parentage and invented 'Peter the Insurance Agent'. Joseph was moving up in the world as a theatre bill poster! Just speculation ;)
Again thanks for the interest everyone.
Question - is it possible to trace Henry Hughes before the Census of 1851?

As pointed out by AG, the marriage record I posted shows that Joseph claimed his father's name was PETER.

As no records of this alleged person have yet been found, you may have to consider that Joseph was illegitimate.

Also..........did you take note that Joseph said he was a WIDOWER?

This is the Henry Hughes you mention:

Henry Hughes
in the 1861 England Census
Name Henry Hughes
Gender Male
Age 50
Relation Head
Estimated Birth Year 1811
Spouse's Name Elizabeth Hughes
Where born Liverpool
Civil parish Everton
Ecclesiastical parish St Chrysostom
County/Island Lancashire
Country England
Registration district West Derby
Sub-registration district Everton
ED, institution, or vessel 24
Neighbors
Household schedule number 194
Piece 2713
Folio 93
Page number 35
Household Members (Name) Age Relationship
Henry Hughes 50 Head
Elizabeth Hughes 48 Wife
William Hughes 28 Son
Thomas Hughes 15 Son
Isaac Hughes 13 Son
Elizabeth Hughes 10 Daughter
Joseph Inhernan Hughes 6 Son


This is the birth of his son Joseph:

HUGHES, JOSEPH INKERMAN mmn GILL
GRO Reference: 1855 M Quarter in WEST DERBY Volume 08B Page 407


The family in 1871:

Joseph Highers
in the 1871 England Census
Name Joseph Highers [Hughes
Age 16
Estimated Birth Year 1855
Relation Son
Gender Male
Where born Kirkdale, Lancashire, England
Civil parish Kirkdale
Ecclesiastical parish St Mary
County/Island Lancashire
Country England
Registration district West Derby
Sub-registration district Toxteth Park
ED, institution, or vessel 98
Household schedule number 190
Piece 3826
Folio 24
Page number 41
Household Members (Name) Age Relationship
Henry Highers 60 Head
Elizabeth Highers 58 Wife
John Highers 21 Son
David Highers 19 Son
Joseph Highers 16 Son - a paver
Henry Highers 14 Son


I don't see him definitely after that. It's quite a common name.

He is NOT the man in Kirkdale in 1891 with wife Elizabeth Jane (nee Pye), and daughters Elizabeth, Ellen Alice, and May.
That man's father was Benjamin, per the marriage record.

As shown above, Joseph senior's father's name was Peter, if the information given on his marriage to Annie was correct.

Wow how impressive! Thank you all I cant believe the responses. I will go through them in detail and cross reference. Based on previous research my brother has done we believe Joseph Senior was not born in Hereford but in Liverpool in 1854. We understand he was originally a bill poster and then theatrical agent and travelled the country with the theatre shows. He lived in Edinburgh for a time where my grandfather Albert Frederick was born in 1886. We understand that Joseph Seniors father was a Henry Hughes born in c1811 in Liverpool, with a wife named Elizabeth born c1814. My brother was unable to go any further back. So thats the journey I'm on to try and flesh out more details and go further back than Henry if possible. Again thanks for all your input!