Genealogy Chat

Hi, I think that my Father in Law, Robert White (b. 1921, d. 2002) must have been illegitimate. He would not even tell my Mother in Law who his Grandfather was, and My Husband does not know his father's name, although he says his grandma was called Florence Dulson. They lived in Salford, I can't find a Florence Dulson, and have looked for all the Robert Whites who were born in the Altrincham (Husband says that where he was born) Or Salford, which is where he lived in 1946-7 when my inlaws married. I did find two Robert Whites with mothers called white though in the birth registry.
Can any one advise what to do?
Thanks.

??
Births Sep 1893
Dulson Florence Salford 8d 100

Births Dec 1897
Dulson Florence Dorothy Salford 8d 143 there is a death listed for her Mar quarter1898

Marriages Dec 1915
Dulson Florence Davenport Salford 8d 88
Davenport James Dulson Salford 8d 88
There are 2 children born to that marriage

search on http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl

Roy

His death cert must give his birth date so that would narrow the birth qtr down

Is this him?

Name: Robert White
Birth Date: 11 Jul 1921
Date of Registration: Jun 2002
Age at Death: 80
Registration District: Manchester
Inferred County: Lancashire
Register Number: C79B
District and Subdistrict: 0061C
Entry number: 224

Maybe

Name: Robert White
Mother's Maiden Surname: White
Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1921
Registration District: Oldham
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume Number: 8d
Page Number: 1006

There is this birth (the registration district of Bucklow was created out of Altrincham).

The quarter when the birth was registered would match up with the date of birth given on the death registration (although it does look like an illegitimate birth):-


Name: WHITE, Robert
Registration district: Bucklow
County: Cheshire
Year of registration: 1921
Quarter of registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
Mother's maiden name: White
Volume no: 8A
Page no: 283

There is also this marriage if Robert's mother later married:-


Name: WHITE, Florence
Registration district: Salford
County: Lancashire
Year of registration: 1925
Quarter of registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
Spouse's last name: Dulson
Volume no: 8D
Page no: 947

Name: DULSON, William<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Registration district: Salford
County: Lancashire
Year of registration: 1925
Quarter of registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
Spouse's last name: White
Volume no: 8D
Page no: 947

This would account for her being called Florence Dulson.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

The marriage certificate would give you both of their father's names if they knew them and it would then be easier to find them in the 1911 census.

EDIT - Were your in-laws married in 1947? Was your mother-in-law called Vera? There seems to be three sons born to this marriage.

Kath. x

Poss?


Printer friendly version Civil registration event: DeathView the original image
Name: DULSON, Florence
Registration district: [?] Salford
County: Lancashire
Year of registration: 1983
Quarter of registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
Date of Birth:26 November 1900

Volume no: 39
Page no: 0959

This one would fit with the death

Household transcription
1901 census

Printer friendly version Report transcription change Search criteria used
Person: WHITE, Florence
Address: 5, Chief Street, Salford

WHITE, Herbert Head Married M 29 1872 Fitter In Iron
Salford, Lancashire VIEW
WHITE, Maria Ann Wife Married F 28 1873
Salford, Lancashire VIEW
WHITE, Robert James Son Single M 7 1894
Salford, Lancashire VIEW
WHITE, Richard Charles Son Single M 1 1900
Salford, Lancashire VIEW
WHITE, Florence Daughter Single F 0 (4 MOS) 1901
Salford, Lancashire VIEW

There are a few trees on Ancestry which confirm that the above Florence white married William Dulson in 1925 one being a daughter of one of their children who died in Canada

Births Mar 1933 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dulson William White Salford 8d 320

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

She seems to have two trees one of them implies there was a son with no father named

from ancestry ...............



Manchester, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1930 about Florence White

Name: Florence White
Birth Year: abt 1901
Age: 24
Marriage Date: 19 Sep 1925
Parish: Salford, Stowell
Parish as it Appears: Stowell Memorial
Father's Name: Herbert White
Spouse's Name: William Dulson
Spouse's Father's Name: Edward Dulson
Reference Number: L73/1/2/8
Item Number: 3
Archive Roll: 918

from image of Register ..............

William
Age 25 (born ca. 1900)
Bachelor
Occupation:- Electrical Winder
Address: 330 Tatton Street, Salford
Father Occupation:- Polisher

Florence
Spinster
Occupation:- Coil Winder
Address:- 330 Tatton Street, Salford
Father occupation:- Fitter (deceased)

Witnesses:- Edward Dulson and Rose White

IF the marriage of Florence White to William Dulson is yours, then this might well be William in 1911

1911 Census

Name: William Dulson
Age in 1911: 12
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1899
Relation to Head: Son
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Manchester, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Stretford
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street Address: 1024 Tenth St Trafford Park
Occupation: School
Registration District: Barton upon Irwell
Registration District Number: 463
Sub-registration District: Stretford

Edward Dulson 38 b.ca 1873, Manchester, Widowed, Brass Polisher at Electrical Manufacturers
Edward Dulson 16 Apprentice Brass Polisher at Electrical Manufacturers
William Dulson 12
Lilly Dulson 5
Emma Jane Ibbotson 38
Ernest Ibbotson 15
Emma Ibbotson 9


The Ibbotsons are Boarders with the Dulsons

Father Edward says on the image that he was married 8 years, had 8 children and 4 died ........ although this was crossed out as only the wife was supposed to give this information.

Thank you all for all your work on my behalf.
I am now convinced that Robert White, my father in law was illegitimate. I feel strongly that my own children have a right to know about their antecedents, and it has rather annoyed me that when he was alive Bob would not tell my husband Phil his grandfather's name, and that since Bob's death his wife Vera will not let us see his documents to try to find anything out. It puzzled me that I could only find mothers with babies called Robert White with the surname White. (I am a bit naive I am afraid) This would explain why he so disliked his Dad. I wonder if his Mum married his father, or Bob was the cuckoo in the nest. However, all the children had the same red hair.
It looks like you have done a lot of the work for me!
We are intrigued as to where Bob, and my daughter's red hair came from, and to this end Phil is having his dna analysed for his birthday present! We think that they look Irish, and are interested to find out if this is so. I suppose that as Bob's father's name remains unknown we will never know for certain who he was.

Unfortunately I don't think you will ever know for certain who Robert White's father was as he is not named on the birth certificate.

Although it is possible that William Dulson was his father I would be more inclined to think he was NOT as if he was I would have expected him to have married Florence a bit sooner than 4 years after Robert's birth.

Robert probably didn't want to talk about his father as in those days there was a terrible stigma in being illegitimate,

You could buy Robert's birth certificate. I'm almost certain (although obviously not 100%) that the birth in the Bucklow district will be the one). This would confirm that the mother's name was Florence and should give an address where Robert was born.

You say your father-in-law "so disliked his dad". Perhaps it was his step-father William that he disliked which was quite common in some families.

Unless Florence actually told someone in the family who Robert's father was then I don't think you are ever going to find out.

Most of us have someone in our ancestors who was illegitimate and we can't get any further back on that particular branch of the family.

Kath. x

Thanks Kath.
We will now try to trace the red hair - strangely, although Phil says his Grandma wasn't red haired, all his Aunties were!.
Will wait the dna test with anticipation!
Liz x

what do you expect the DNA test to tell you??

It certainly will not tell you who he is related to

It might tell you that a percentage of his ancestors came from such-and-such a place in Europe, or Africa.


The only conclusive use of a DNA test to tell relationships is when comparing relatives (or non-relatives) ................... and this is not of much use in this case if all the children have the same mother


Why waste your time being angry at a secret having been kept 100 years ago?

That was the situation then ........................ illegitimacy was a funny thing back then

It was a great disgrace to have an illegitimate child in many ways, yet in other ways it was a boon ................... it proved that the mother was fecund, and would almost certainly have more children who would help support the old folk in the family.


Have you thought of trying to see if step-father William was married before he married Florence?

That might explain why they did not marry until 4 years after Robert was born .......... IF Robert was William's child, and he and Florence had been in a liaison for years before marrying.

Re the Bucklow b.cert of Kath's post:

Using http://www.cheshirebmd.org.uk/
Cheshire Birth indexes for the years: 1921 to 1923
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
WHITE Robert Altrincham Trafford ALT/126/14

matches
Births Sep 1921 (>99%)
White Robert White Bucklow 8a 283

You could try to see if Florence White took a man to court in 1921 to obtain maintenance . But it is easier if you have a possible name of accused .

regarding DNA who are you going to test against ? I think DNA can show if the father was different even if the mother is the same .but as you'll be coming down at least 1 generation it would be cousins rather than siblings .

Re the DNA test, yes I know all that about what it will show. What we want to know is where our daughter's red hair is from!
The anger is irritation, as I think my children have a right to know who their great grandfather was on both sides of the family. I think the greatest anger was obviously felt by my husband's father, who wouldn't even mention anything.
It looks as though the red hair came down the White maternal line, as Bob had a grandma called Maria Ann, who could very well have Irish blood in her. We think that my daughter looks very Irish!

Lots of red heads in Scotland too!

My brother grew sideburns around 1960.

They were very reddish, while his hair was brown

Grandfather said, rather accusingly, to my father "Where did that red hair come from?"


It turned out that grandfather's hair had been reddish when he was young :-D



and that probably explained why my brother's 3 daughters, all born in the 1950s had glorious red hair ................. their mother had been blamed for it.


She was of Scottish origin............... but no-one in her family had had red hair.


Personally, I would associate red hair with the Scots much more than with the Irish.


I always think of the Irish as having gorgeous black hair.



but, really ................... in the great scheme of things ...............

What does it matter if your daughter is healthy and happy, what colour her hair is or where it came from?



In the case of your father-in-law .................. it may well not have been irritation or anger ............

it could have been shame at having been born illegitimate.

it may have been hatred of his step-father, whether or not that man was his birth father or not.


You're wanting to know something that is probably impossible to know!