Genealogy Chat

Hi Reggie

Joseph Harris occupation: simply "labourer" as posted above. So, yes, it does "match" the "agricultural labourer" of the census. However, the age on the census (60) as well as the age of "Maria Harris" in the same household (25) are both in the next category up from where I would expect, if they are in fact Mary Harris (aged 19 or 20) and her father Joseph (aged about 56/57 if his age at death of 64 in December 1848 is correct). So I am not certain this is them, although it is hard to see where the "extra" Joseph Harris might come from.

Yes, Mary would be old enough to produce a child in 1839 (17 or 18) but where is this child in 1841? He did not die until 1860. And why the long delay in her marrying the father of this child (over 4 years since the start of the relationship)?

I think I have a lot of research still to do here, and am grateful for the comments, suggestions and information provided by all. However, I think it is time to call this thread to an end, as I don't want to prolong this into an "ancestor hunt".

I think the best answer to my question was provided by Flip i.e. look for a local history society which might have transcribed the local data onto a website.

Regards

Kim

FMP lists all 'known issues' with regards to censuses.......there is no mention of any for Shropshire in 1841

What was Joseph's occupation said to be on the marriage cert?

Does it match that of the man you have found in 1841?

Born in 1822 (or thereabouts) Mary would have been quite old enough to produce a child in 1839

What age was recorded for her on her marriage cert?

Not sure which website you use for your research, but, on FMP, you can simply enter the 'place of residence'..............and click on 'search'.

Inputting 'Romsley' produces 681 records

EDIT

Re-reading your first post, I see that you use GR

Hello Chris, Inky1

Thank you for your additions.

Chris - I had not got either of these burials, and they do seem to be the right ones, so thank you very much for this.

Inky1 - the thought had occurred to me, before Flip kindly provided the link to the transcription. I realised I had been looking in the wrong county. In 1841 Romsley was in the Bridgnorth district and counted as part of Shropshire/Salop; from 1851 it was counted as part of the Bromsgrove district and as part of Worcestershire. Now that this is clear I shall have to re-do all my searches before concluding that the "missing" John Trow and Thomas Trow are really missing. So please hold fire on that aspect of my enquiry for a while...

Kim

Though it probably does not apply to this thread, please remember that no census is complete. In my own research the fact that one section of Kensington 1841 never got microfilmed created a number of problems.

http://blog.nationalarchives.gov.uk/blog/missing-from-the-census/

Burial
County Worcestershire
Place Halesowen
Church St John the Baptist
RegisterNumber
BurialDate 11 Dec 1848
Forename Joseph
Relationship
Rel1MaleForename
Rel1FemaleForename
Rel1Surname
Surname HARRIS
Age 64
Abode Romsley

Burial
County Worcestershire
Place Halesowen
Church St John the Baptist
RegisterNumber
BurialDate 11 Dec 1860
Forename Thomas
Relationship
Rel1MaleForename
Rel1FemaleForename
Rel1Surname
Surname TROW
Age 21
Abode Cradley

(if fitting anywhere)

Chris :)

http://www.freereg.org.uk/cgi/Search.pl

I looked through the whole of ' Dayhouse Bank' & Romsley in the 1841 census

Nothing, zilch and nada :-(

Maria Whitehouse, "England Marriages, 1538–1973 "
Name: John Torey
Birth Date:
Birthplace:
Age:
Spouse's Name: Maria Whitehouse
Spouse's Birth Date:
Spouse's Birthplace:
Spouse's Age:
Event Date: 19 Apr 1840
Event Place: Bromsgrove, Worcester, England
Father's Name: Samuel Torey
Mother's Name:
Spouse's Father's Name: Thomas Whitehouse
Spouse's Mother's Name:
Race:
Marital Status:
Previous Wife's Name:
Spouse's Race:
Spouse's Marital Status:
Spouse's Previous Husband's Name:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: I03752-6
System Origin: England-EASy
GS Film number: 321129
Reference ID: 59

Hi Gins

Thanks for looking. I think "Jove" is "Tove" and this surname should be pronounced "Tovey". Marriages 1840 June quarter, Bromsgrove 18/316 includes the names John Tovey, Maria Waterhouse, and I think this is them.

Regards

Kim

Could this be the father of Thomas?



1841 England Census

Name:John Jove

Age:25

Estimated birth year:abt 1816

Gender:Male

Where born:Worcestershire, England

Civil Parish:Bromsgrove

Hundred:Doddingtree (Upper Division)

County/Island:Worcestershire

Registration district:Bromsgrove

Sub-registration district:Bromsgrove

Piece:1195

Book:4
Folio:36
Page Number:24

Household Members:

John Jove 25 <<<Nailor
Maria Jove 20
Sarah Jove 9 Mo

It's possible to narrow down to districts on Ancestry and the first page of the record set gives details of the coverage, or you can search by address on FMP - but I've no idea how to do this on GR. Maybe contact GR support and ask?

The 1841 census for Romsley & Hunnington is here but I can't see a Trow:

http://www.rhhs.org.uk/censuses/48-romsley-1841.html

Hello Flip, Margee

Thank you for your replies.

Margee: I appreciate the effort, but no, this is not the one. Her father's name on the marriage certificate is Joseph.

Flip: I thank you very much for the link, and it seems possible that Mary Harris is on this list. At Shut Mill Lane there is
Joseph Harris, 60, ag. labourer, born in county
Maria Harris, 25, not born in county (?)

This seems to be the most likely match despite the age being a little high and the "not born in county" being contradicted later, and the baptism 1822 fits exactly. She is probably a year or two old in 1822, but not as old as 5, despite claiming to be 29 in 1851 (and consistently 1861, 1871), as her son Thomas was born in 1839.

However, there is no sign of Thomas, whether surnamed Trow or Harris, at this point. The certificates I have are as follows:

(a) 1839 birth (registered 7th December 1839, in the FreeBMD index under TROW)
Date and place: 30th November 1839, Romsley
Name: Thomas
Sex: boy
Name of father: John Trow
Name of mother: Mary Harris, singlewoman
Occupation of father: nailor
Signature/residence of informant: The mark X of Mary Harris, mother, Dayhouse Bank

(b) Marriage 1843
Marriage solemnised at the parish church in the parish of Halesowen in the county of Salop, August 5th 1843
John Trow, full age, bachelor, nailer, of Romsley quarter; father Daniel Trow, labourer
Mary Harris, full age, spinster, nailer, of Romsley, father Joseph Harris, labourer.
Both parties made their mark, and the marriage was "according to the rites.. of the established church by banns".
witnesses George Fiddian (?), and the mark of Ann Hancox

(c) 1843 birth (registered 22nd December 1843)
Date and place: 16th November 1843, Bromsgrove
Name: Jesson [this is how "Jason" was spelled here]
Sex: boy
Name of father: John Trow
Name of mother: Mary Trow, formerly Harris
Occupation of father: labourer
Signature/residence of informant: The mark X of John Trow, father, Chapmans Hill

The reason for my search is that John Trow is conspicuous by his absence. He is only present for the marriage and the birth of Jason Trow in 1843. His wife Mary returned to Romsley for the 1851 census, and has two further children listed, but their paternity is questionable. Her permanent lodger Josiah Hunt is probably the biological father. This is also true of 1861 and 1871. She describes her condition as "married" in all three censuses, and finally marries Josiah Hunt in 1876, so I assume John Trow is alive until 1871/1876 but living elsewhere. He does not appear on any of these censuses unless he was bigamous.

I can find no trace of a "Daniel Trow" (the stated father of John on the marriage certificate) anywhere. Unless John Trow was already married in 1841 to someone else, and gave false information in 1843, I seem to be stuck. Hence my search for the eldest son of this couple, Thomas, in 1841. If he is not with his mother or her family, the next most likely would be with his father. If people want to check all this out and give suggestions I would be most pleased.

However, the main thrust of my question was more general - what do people do to start a house-by-house search of a particular location in a particular census, if they do not already have a direct link to that location? I would welcome hints etc. on this topic, as it has been an option several times for me in past researches when a name was not coming up on an index search.

Regards

Kim

If you follow the link, there are also christening records - there's one for Mary Harriss on 21/4/1822 daughter of Joseph & Mary of Dayhouse Bank (where she was living 1851). Also christened same day was sister Hannah.

Could this possibly be Mary in 1841 remembering that ages on that census were rounded down so she could have been 15-19? Do you have her father's name on marriage certificate?

1841 England Census
about Mary Harris Name: Mary Harris
Age: 15
Estimated birth year: abt 1826
Gender: Female
Where born: Worcestershire, England

Civil Parish: Bromsgrove
Hundred: Doddingtree (Upper Division)
County/Island: Worcestershire
Country: England

Registration district: Bromsgrove
Sub-registration district: Bromsgrove
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 1195
Book: 5
Folio: 31
Page Number: 14
Household Members: Name Age
Thomas Harris 70
Charlotte Harris 30
Mary Harris 15
Thos Harris 8
Mary Harris 2

The local family history society have transcribed the 1841 census

http://www.rhhs.org.uk/censuses/48-romsley-1841.html

I am sure someone will explain in detail how to access 1841 through genes for Romsley. I use ancestry and do not know how genes is configured.

Meanwhile, were you aware of this?
http://www.worcesterbmsgh.co.uk/parish/romsley

Hi all

I have been doing some research for a friend. I have located their ancestor's family in the 1851 census, at the village of Romsley in Worcestershire:

1851: Household #43, Romsley (surname transcribed as “Frow” on GR)
Mary Trow, 29, head, nailor, born Romsley (listed condition as “married”)
Thomas Trow, 11, son, nailor, born Romsley
Jason Trow, 8, son, born Romsley
Henery Trow, 2, son, born Romsley
Siella Trow, 10 months, daughter, born Romsley
Josiah Hunt, 28, lodger, bricklayer, born Romsley (first name transcribed as “Joseph” on GR)

I have not posted corrections on these spellings.

I wanted to find the same family in 1841. Mary Harris did not marry John Trow until 1843 (I have the certificate) but their son Thomas was born in 1839 (I have the certificate) so I was looking for Mary Harris, and a son Thomas (either Harris or Trow). I could not find them. Because "Trow" is often misspelled and even more often mistranscribed, I have searched simply for children called Thomas in the Bromsgrove district aged 1 or 2 (he was born on 30th November 1839) again with no result (there are some but none are him).

So I decided to try a house by house search. I collected a list of a dozen people who were on the 1851 census as both born and living in Romsley, and were over 10 years old, and looked for them in the 1841 census to try to locate pages covering Romsley. I found two of them living in Bromsgrove, but the rest simply did not appear (I was using the plus or minus 10 years for the ages in the search).

My question is, how do I find this village on the 1841 census. Is there a known method, or an "index" available somewhere which can tell me where to look, and if so how would I use that index to search the GR site's transcription of that census?

Thanks in advance for any assistance.

Regards

Kim Sargerson