Genealogy Chat

I ordered a marriage certificate for my maternal great grandparents, Joseph Jones to Ellen Kindle Mar 1886 using the information I obtained from the marriage records. The certificate I received was for a different Ellen Kindle who was a lot older than my great gran. I received an email from GRO today with a full refund, stating that the reference I quoted appears to be incorrect. I have checked the details on three different sites and each one has the same information that I initially gave GRO.

Not sure how I proceed with this and I don't have any other references to quote, any suggestions?

Thanks
Elaine

From FreeBMD:

Marriages Mar 1886
Backstrom John Liverpool 8b 69
CORCORAN Bridget Liverpool 8b 69
**Kennedy Edward Liverpool 8b 69
**Kindle Ellen Liverpool 8b 69

Only marriage showing and this Ellen didn't marry a Jones, she married Edward Kennedy accords to LancsBmd:

http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/marriages.php


Rose

Can you list her in the 1891 census? Where was she born and where did you find her maiden name?

Rose

Hi Rose, that's the certificate I received, which was incorrect. I haven't been able to find them on the 1891 census only the 1901. They don't appear on the 1911 census as one died in 1909, the other 1910.

Elaine

Can you list everything you have? It's really difficult to help without locations and ages.

When and where were they both born? Where did the surname Kindle come from?

Rose

Ellen Kindle
England and Wales Marriage Registration Index
Name Ellen Kindle
Event Type Marriage
Registration Quarter Jan-Feb-Mar
Registration Year 1886
Registration District Liverpool
County Lancashire
Event Place Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Volume 8B
Page 49
Line Number 143

Ellen Kindle probably married one of the following people
Name Fanny Atkins
Name Wilhelm George Bungeroth
Name Joseph Jones
Name Alice Maud M Settle

Relation Name: Ellen Kindle
Date of Birth: 1869
Place of Birth:

(above given from 'Search All Member Trees')

Chris :)

(if below for reference to 1901?)

1901 (Find My Past)
Joseph Jones Head Married Male 33 1868 Goods Carter Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Ellen Jones Wife Married Female 32 1869 - Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Sarah Jones Daughter - Female 10 1891 - Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Ann Jones Daughter - Female 3 1898 - Liverpool, Lancashire, England
George Jones Son - Male 0 1901 - Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Elizabeth Jones Daughter - Female 0 1901 - Liverpool, Lancashire, England
David Hartness Uncle Widower Male 47 1854 Railway Carter Liverpool, Lancashire, England
David Hartness Son Single Male 22 1879 Bricklayers Labourer Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Edward Smith Boarder Single Male 51 1850 Dock Labourer Cheshire, England
Thomas Dunn Boarder Single Male 42 1859 Coal Carter
Street Hornby Street
Parish Liverpool
County Lancashire
Municipal ward South Scotland
Registration district Liverpool
Archive reference RG13
Piece number 3411
Folio 112
Page 49


(Uncle below perhaps)

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1877

HARTNESS David CAMPBELL Annie Liverpool, Our Lady & St. Nicholas & St. Anne Liverpool 2053LP/63/347


https://grangehill1922.wordpress.com/2014/08/01/david-hartness/

(interesting on younger David Hartness)

Malyon,

They are the details I gave GRO and they advised they were incorrect.

Elaine

Hi Rose,

Joseph Jones born Liverpool 1866 +/- 2 years
Ellen Kindle born Liverpool 1869 +/- 2 years
Married first qtr 1886

Don't know where the Kindle surname came from, I was hoping to find out on the marriage certificate.

The details above from Chris Ho are the same as I have from the 1901 census.

Elaine

Which child do you have Birth Cert. of, to get Maiden Name of Mother, Kindle?...

Chris :)

I haven't got any through yet, ordered for the twins George and Elizabeth Jones b. 1901, not yet arrived.

Wasn't the one you got 8b 69 and the one marrying Joseph Jones 8b 49,so there was a difference!!
or am I missing something.

Maryb.

Elaine - it's not what FreeBMD says - they say Ellen's page is 69. There's something wrong with the p49 transcriptions, as they have 5 names there. I presume you're talking abt a couple of weeks back - I can only see what's on there after the 7/9/15 update (and Ancestry uses FreeBMD's transcription thru 1915).
The moral of this tale is: check the images yourself, certainly before ordering.

This looks more likely for Chris's 1901:
Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1890
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
JONES Joseph HIGHTON Ellen Liverpool, All Saints Liverpool 2019LP/6/375

Unfortunately, http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/ have a gap for rego's 5-8, as well as part of # 1, & we need rego # 6. entry # 375.

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/search/db.aspx?dbid=2197
seems to have the image, but it's not indexed yet, so browse thru the records (at right). I presume it shows the whole of rego 6 - if it's 2 entries per image,
entry 375 should be on image # 188 of 250 or thereabouts.


EDIT - FIXED MY TYPO OF 89 FOR 69

Did they have the following,
Sarah Ellen Jones 29/3/1891 address 53,Bevington Hill
Ann mawdsleyJones 24/3/1893
Grace Jones 19/10/1885 died?
Eliza Jones 10/5/1897 died ?
Joseph Jones 1/10/1898
George Jones 7/8/1900
Elizabeth Jones 7/8/1900.

1891 53,Bevington hill
George Highton
Ann highton
Ellen Highton says 22 single
Cornelius Jones18.

The marriage for Joseph Jones and Ellen Highton says1890??
Father of Ellen was George and father of Joseph was Cornelius Jones.

So it seems Joseph married Ellen Highton not Kindle.

Maryb.

Baptism: 30 May 1866 St Bartholomew, Vauxhall, Lancashire, England
Grace Highton - Child of George Highton & Ann
Abode: Wellington St
Occupation: Labourer
Baptised by: Thos. Robinson
Register: Baptisms 1841 - 1929, Page 160, Entry 1270
Source: LDS Film 1656153


Baptism: 29 Mar 1868 St Bartholomew, Vauxhall, Lancashire, England
Ellen Highton - Child of George Highton & Ann
Abode: Wellington St
Occupation: Labourer
Baptised by: Thos. Robinson
Register: Baptisms 1841 - 1929, Page 166, Entry 1322
Source: LDS Film 1656153

(above could relate perhaps)

http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/Search/indexp.html


1881 (Find My Past)
George Huyton Head Married Male 37 1844 Labourer England
Ann Huyton Wife Married Female 38 1843 - Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Grace Huyton Daughter Single Female 15 1866 Dress Maker Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Ellen Huyton Daughter Single Female 10 1871 - Liverpool, Lancashire, England
William Huyton Son Single Male 8 1873 - Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Edward Smith Visitor Single Male 32 1849 - Barton
House name Court 1 House
Street Wellington Street
Parish Liverpool
County Lancashire
Registration district Liverpool
Archive reference RG11
Piece number 3595
Folio 105
Page 21


Baptism: 11 Aug 1866 Christ Church, Hunter Street, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Joseph Jones - [Child] of Cornelius Jones & Eliza
Born: 28 Jul 1866
Abode: 5 Haydn Street V. Road
Occupation: Labourer
Notes: W. Mary & Margt Jones. E. M. S.
Baptised by: J. S. Jones Incumbent
Register: Baptisms 1851 - 1872, Page 104, Entry 2344
Source: LDS Film 1656153

Chris :)

The marriage transcription for Joseph Jones taken from BMD

Image Quarter 1 1886
District: Liverpool
Volume: 8B
Page: 49

Spousal matches:
Fanny ATKINS
Ellen KINDLE
Alice Maud SETTLE

The marriage transcription for Ellen Kindle taken from BMD

Image Quarter: 1 1886
District: Liverpool
Volume: 8B
Page: 49

Spousal matches:
Wilhelm George BUNGEROTH
Joseph JONES

I knew my great grans first name was Ellen, I just didn't know what her surname was. This is how I've made the connection especially as they both have the same GRO references.

I know their twins Elizabeth and George Jones were born 07 Aug 1900 and were baptized at St. Stephen's Church, Liverpool on 02 Sep 1900. I'm still working on the rest of the siblings.

Elaine

Here's the two pages from FreeBMD & the matching entries from LancsBMD

Marriages Mar 1886 (>99%)
Atkins Fanny Liverpool 8b 49
BUNGEROTH Wilhelm George Liverpool 8b 49
Jones Joseph Liverpool 8b 49
SETTLE Alice Maud M Liverpool 8b 49

Marriages Mar 1886 (>99%)
Backstrom John Liverpool 8b 69
CORCORAN Bridget Liverpool 8b 69
Kennedy Edward Liverpool 8b 69
Kindle Ellen Liverpool 8b 69

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1886
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
JONES Joseph ATKINS Fanny Liverpool, St. John Liverpool 2107LP/13/151
BUNGEROTH Wilhelm G SETTLE Alice M Liverpool, St. John Liverpool 2107LP/13/152
------------
KENNEDY Edward KINDLE Ellen Liverpool, St. Michael in the City Liverpool 2054LP/10/89
BACKSTROM John CORCORAN Bridget Liverpool, St. Michael in the City Liverpool 2054LP/10/90


If you check the GRO index image, it's clear Ellen Kindle's page # is 69


===============================


Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1865
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
HUYTON George MAWDSLEY Ann Liverpool, Our Lady & St. Nicholas & St. Anne Liverpool 2053LP/47/487


1881 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XQDC-RHK
Corns Jones Head M 45 Lpool, Lancashire, England
Eliza Jones Wife F 45 Ireland
Jos Jones Son M 14 Lpool, Lancashire, England
Jno A Jones Son M 13 Lpool, Lancashire, England
Corns Jones Son M 12 Lpool, Lancashire, England
George Jones Son M 5 Lpool, Lancashire, England
Eliza Jones Daughter F 8 Lpool, Lancashire, England
Jas Hartness Boarder M 33 Lpool, Lancashire, England

1871 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VBFJ-2YV
Cornelius Jones Head M 36 Liverpool, Lancashire
Eliza Jones Wife F 35 Ireland
Margaret Jones Daughter F 10 Liverpool, Lancashire
Joseph Jones Son M 4 Liverpool, Lancashire
John Alexander Jones M 2 Liverpool, Lancashire


Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1856
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
JONES Cornelius HARTNESS Elizabeth Liverpool, Our Lady & St. Nicholas & St. Anne Liverpool 2053LP/33/421

Here's the image for the 1890 Jones/Highton marriage

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/keepsafe/asset/details/18725440

Given the occupation for Joseph it seems very likely. Also, note the way Ellen has signed her surname as opposed to how it is spelled on the record.

So it is the Ellen Highton who is the correct one you are following,going on Cornelius Jones marrying Elizabeth Hartness = the uncle David Hartness on 1901 census with Joseph and Ellen Jones.

Maryb.

1861 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7P8-D76 [so Hartlup on FMP/GR too]
Name Parent or spouse names Birth Year Birthplace Relation Residence
David Hartless[David Hartness] Ann 1816 Ireland relation city
Ann Hartless[Ann Hartness] David 1817 Ireland relation city
Thomas Hartless[Thomas Hartness] David,Ann 1844 Ireland relation city
George Hartless[George Hartness] David,Ann 1847 Ireland relation city
David Hartless[David Hartness] David,Ann 1857 Liverpool , England Son city
Margrett Hartless[Margrett Hartness] David,Ann 1859 England relation city
[RG9/2663 Liverpool RD(Howard Street subRD) Folio 51 Page 9
I think at the top of the page is part of the h/h of John & Hannah Jones - relevance unkown]

Cornielus Jones Elizabeth 1836 England relation city, Lancashire
Elizabeth Jones Cornielus 1837 Ireland Wife city, Lancashire
Margret Jones Cornielus,Elizabeth 1860 Ireland Daughter city, Lancashire
[rg9/2663/49/6 - so just 3 pages away from Uncle (to be?) David
Margt seems to be shown as Daur, not Step-daur, nor Daur-in-law
So was Corn in Ireland or what, and is Elizabeth our Eliza Hartness]

1851 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGN8-MWQ
Name Parent or spouse names Birth Year Birthplace Relation Residence View Image
Michael Jones abt 1804 location Head city, Lancashire
Margaret Jones Michael abt 1833 location relation city, Lancashire
Cornelius Jones Michael abt 1835 location relation city, Lancashire
Ellen Jones Michael abt 1837 location relation city, Lancashire
Elizabeth Jones Michael abt 1841 location relation city, Lancashire
Mary Ann Jones Michael abt 1843 location relation city, Lancashire
[ho107/2181/308/39 - Piece # ho107/2181 covers Liverpool RD(St Thomas subRD)]


1841 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQL9-KDJ
Michael Jones M 40-44 Ireland
Margret Jones F 30-34 Ireland
Jane Jones F 12 Lancashire
Margt Jones F 10 Lancashire
Cornelius Jones M 6 Lancashire
Ellen Jones F 4 Lancashire
Elizabeth Jones F 2 Lancashire
[ho107/565/5/40/27 - the birth year calculation is flawed in the FS transcript]