Genealogy Chat

Morning Pam, are you able to share the addresses you have?:

Where is Robert listed as living on his marriage certificate?

Addresses where children were born

Address for Hilda when she remarried

still getting no-where, I am presuming Robert did not know his father as there is not one on his marriage cetificate, just a line through, so am looking for an illegitimate Robert!! have got in touch with Croydon archives to see if he was on the electoral rolls, as this is his last known address in 1921-1931 to see when he disappeared, awaiting a reply!! have tried the schools on line in the area for the first 2 children who were born 1911 and 1913, but no luck. looks as though I will have to wait for the 1921 census to appear in 2022!!
Pam

it is quite correct that a husband might not be alive when a baby is born to his widow ..............

if a woman said she was married when registering a baby, it was assumed that the name she was using was her husband's name and the baby was his child UNLESS she said otherwise.

If a man other than the husband was the father of the child, and his surname was different from the mother, he had to be present at the registration to state that he was indeed the father or he had to send a letter agreeing to his name being put on the certificate.


This has led to lots of us chasing up men who were not alive ............. or alive but not living with their wife.


I once found a baby born 10 years after the father had died but given his surname and he was named on the certificate.

Last week, I heard about a similar event but the husband had died 12 years before.


Unfortunately so much of the "evidence" that our ancestors has left for us is not true ........... they lied on certificates, censuses, and all manner of documents!

In their defense, it must be said that many of our earlier ancestors were illiterate, many of them did not know exactly how old they were or their birth date, and may not have known their parents' full names.

In other cases it was what looked better to the neighbours or the powers-that-be ............ eg, a man or woman who was much older/younger than their spouse would add or deduct years from their age. A woman whose husband had left her would still say she was married or that she was a widow. A man in a similar situation often called himself a bachelor ..... unless he'd got the children when he would say widowed.

It just goes on and on.


.......... and it is part of what makes looking for our ancestors so intriguing!!!

Pamela - you infer that Robert was alive in 1920 based on:

Marriages Dec 1910 (>99%)
Herbert Hilda Belper 7b 1351
Hughes Robert H Belper 7b 1351

Births Jun 1921 (>99%)
Hughes Philip J Herbert Croydon 2a 519



Here's a similar example from my family:

Marriages Dec 1873 (>99%)
Hesmondhalgh Mary Ann Kendal 10b 1143
Logan George Harold Kendal 10b 1143

Name: Mother's Maiden Surname:
LOGAN, JAMES EDMUND HESMONDHALGH Order
GRO Reference: 1880 J Quarter in KENDAL Volume 10B Page 750


BUT

Deaths Sep 1878 (>99%)
Logan George Harold 23 Kendal 10b 411

Out of interest, I also looked up James Edmund's younger sis in the new GRO index:
Name: Mother's Maiden Surname:
LOGAN, EDITH LEWIS - Order
GRO Reference: 1882 J Quarter in KENDAL Volume 10B Page 723

Robert Hughes
England and Wales Census, 1911
Name
Robert Hughes
Event Type
Census
Event Date
1911
Event Place
, Garnedd Tregele Cemaes, Anglesey, Wales
County
Anglesey
Sub-District
Llanfechell
Registration District
Anglesey
Gender
Male
Age
6
Occupation
SCHOOL
Birthplace
Llanfechell, Anglesey
Relationship to Head of Household
Son

apparently the death in 1931 is of a Robert Hope Hughes B1889 Bangor, so thats put that to bed!! I cannot see any more Robert Hughes`s deaths that correspond with his birth year. so am stuck on that line.

Thanks.On marriage cert no father is given, so guess he did not know him!! or was illegit the cousin Samuel on the marriage cert. was the child of Hilda Herberts father Henry `s brother. I guess Hilda was visiting Samuel , and that is how she met Robert.
The only death I can find that corresponds with the date of birth for a Robert Henry is in 1931 , so will attempt to see if his wife on it is Hilda!!
thanks for your interest.
Pam

Would say that witness was Ada Hannah Severn, her Marriage 1912, at United Methodist Chapel, Alfreton, same as Robert 1910, she is with parents 1911, Alfreton (her father William also a Miner)

Derbyshire Registrars Marriage Index Transcription (Find My Past)

Chris :)

Edits (notes on 1911 where Robert is lodging with Mr.Walter Holmes, for Address is Mr. Walter Holmes, 55 Blackwell Colliery, nr. Alfreton, Derbyshire

Did he give the name of a father and father's occupation on the marriage certificate?

thanks for your input .On the marriage cert. the witness`s were S.Herbert (Hilda`s cousin) and a Ada Severn. If he was 22 years old in Nov of 1910 and still 22yrs on the census in April of 1911 How can I tell when he was born?. The gap with the childrens births 1911,1913 then 1921 is when he must have been away in WW1
I have looked on findmypast and ancestry for records with no luck,
and can find no death for him between 1921-1933 when his wife re-married, but I dont know where they were living after Croyden in 1921
Thanks
Pam

North Wales Birth indexes for the years:
Surname Forename(s) Mother's Maiden Name Sub-District Registers At Reference
1887 HUGHES Robert Henry JONES Beaumaris Isle of Anglesey (Llangefni) BEAUMARIS/32/E297
1888 HUGHES Robert Henry SUTTON Holyhead Isle of Anglesey (Llangefni) HOLYHEAD/27/E439

Who are the witnesses on the marriage certificate????

They may often be used to trace families

The following Robert Henry Hughes were registered in Wales between 1887 and 1891 ..........

GRO Index ......

HUGHES, ROBERT HENRY mmn JONES
GRO Reference: 1887 D Quarter in BANGOR Volume 11B Page 422

HUGHES, ROBERT HENRY mmn SUTTON
GRO Reference: 1888 D Quarter in HOLYHEAD Volume 11B Page 483

HUGHES, ROBERT HENRY mmn ROBERTS
GRO Reference: 1891 M Quarter in FESTINIOG Volume 11B Page 368

HUGHES, ROBERT HENRY JENKINS Order
GRO Reference: 1891 S Quarter in WREXHAM Volume 11B Page 254

Pam ..............

as I have just said on the pm I sent in reply to yours ...............

the age stated on a marriage certificate OR a census is the age on that particular date ....................

a person's birth date may be before OR after that date.

So a marriage certificate or a census may always be at least 1 year out.

We won't go into whether or not people have told the truth!!!


As regards his army service ............... that was probably in WW1, and only about 30% of WW1 records have survived, and most of those are damaged.

You have the best chance of finding his record IF it has survived on either ancestry or FindMyPast ......... both subscription sites. People on GR will help you look if you ask.

I have deduced Robert`s year of birth by his wedding cert Nov 1910 to Hilda herbert born in York. but married in Belpher Derbyshire he stated he was 22yrs old, and then I found him on the 1911 census a miner living in Derbyshire age 22yrs. so deduced he was born in 1889.I have the births of his 3 children on which the last one born in Croyden in 1921 he states then he was an army pensioner and late steel erector, but I can find no army record for him or death record. his wife re-married in 1933 stating she was a widow, so he must have died between 1921-1932, but where I dont know his wife came bac k to her home town of York some time between his death and her re-m arriage On a lot of the certificates he is down as Robert"henry"Hughes, this was stated on his marriage cert and his first two children on their marriage has him down with a "Henry" (deceased) so dont know if he was christened with this. I cannot go any further back until I find his birth. His wife on the 1911 census is back in York under her maiden name but states she is married?but it is correct, she was awaiting the birth of their first child. He is the only Robert Hughes on the 1911 census born in 1889 and married under a year, We deciphered his birth place as Tregele, but some-one has put co. monmouth,which is wrong its the welsh Ynys Mon that must have confused the enumerator especially if he was not Welsh I thought if I could find another family living in Tregele around the same time it might help me on the 1901 census, which Robert should be on!!

On 1/1/1885, Anglesey RD was split and Holyhead RD was created
Thru 1911, Holyhead RD had the subdistricts Bryngwran, Llanddeusant and Holyhead
Anglesey along the Menai Straits was covered in the west by Llanidan subdistrict in Carnavon RD, and in the east by Beaumaris subdistrict in Bangor RD.
Anglesey RD had the subdistricts Llangefni, Amlwch and Llandyfrydog thru 1894. On 1/1/1895 Llandyfrydog was replaced by Llanfechell subdistrict.

Tregele is a township in Llanfechell parish, and was in the Llandyfrydog subdistrict of Anglesey RD thru 1894, and then in the Llanfechell subdistrict of Anglesey RD thereafter.

Here are the new GRO index lookups for Robert Hughes in Anglesey RD for 1891 +/- 2


Name: Mother's Maiden Surname:
HUGHES, ROBERT PIERCE EDWARDS Order
GRO Reference: 1889 J Quarter in ANGLESEY Volume 11B Page 499

HUGHES, ROBERT JONES Order
GRO Reference: 1889 D Quarter in ANGLESEY Volume 11B Page 439

HUGHES, ROBERT ROBERTS Order
GRO Reference: 1890 M Quarter in ANGLESEY Volume 11B Page 462

HUGHES, ROBERT WILLIAM EDWARDS Order
GRO Reference: 1890 J Quarter in ANGLESEY Volume 11B Page 499

HUGHES, ROBERT WILLIAMS Order
GRO Reference: 1890 D Quarter in ANGLESEY Volume 11B Page 424

HUGHES, ROBERT THOMAS Order
GRO Reference: 1890 D Quarter in ANGLESEY Volume 11B Page 424

HUGHES, ROBERT PRITCHARD Order
GRO Reference: 1891 M Quarter in AUGLESEY Volume 11B Page 464

HUGHES, ROBERT PARRY Order
GRO Reference: 1892 M Quarter in ANGLESEY Volume 11B Page 430

HUGHES, ROBERT - Order
GRO Reference: 1892 J Quarter in ANGLESEY Volume 11B Page 506

HUGHES, ROBERT CURRIE - Order
GRO Reference: 1893 M Quarter in ANGLESEY Volume 11B Page 463


Here are the matching lookups in the local index at:
http://www.northwalesbmd.org.uk/index.php

North Wales Birth indexes for the years:
Surname Forename(s) Mother's Maiden Name Sub-District Registers At Reference
1889 HUGHES Robert Pierce EDWARDS Amlwch Isle of Anglesey (Llangefni) AMLWCH/20/E207
1889 HUGHES Robert JONES Llangefni Isle of Anglesey (Llangefni) GEFNI/16/E417
1890 HUGHES Robert ROBERTS Amlwch Isle of Anglesey (Llangefni) AMLWCH/20/E331
1890 HUGHES Robert William EDWARDS Llangefni Isle of Anglesey (Llangefni) GEFNI/16/E488
1890 HUGHES Robert WILLIAMS Amlwch Isle of Anglesey (Llangefni) AMLWCH/20/E427
1890 HUGHES Robert THOMAS Amlwch Isle of Anglesey (Llangefni) AMLWCH/20/E428
1890 HUGHES Robert PRITCHARD Llangefni Isle of Anglesey (Llangefni) GEFNI/17/E64
1892 HUGHES Robert PARRY Llangefni Isle of Anglesey (Llangefni) GEFNI/17/E215
1892 HUGHES Robert HUGHES Llandyfrydog Isle of Anglesey (Llangefni) DYFRYDOG/14/E350
1892 HUGHES Robert Currie JONES Llangefni Isle of Anglesey (Llangefni) GEFNI/17/E310

NB northwalesbmd indexes by year of birth, not year of rego.

Note there is only one birth rego'ed in Llandyfrydog, viz
North Wales Birth indexes for the years: 1892
Surname Forename(s) Mother's Maiden Name Sub-District Registers At Reference
HUGHES Robert HUGHES Llandyfrydog Isle of Anglesey (Llangefni) DYFRYDOG/14/E350

matching:
HUGHES, ROBERT - Order
GRO Reference: 1892 J Quarter in ANGLESEY Volume 11B Page 506

Caution:
1893q4 468-469 incomplete transcription for Llandyfrydog
1895q1 475-477 no transcription for Llandyfrydog
1895q2 491-493 no transcription for Llandyfrydog
1895q3 477-479 no transcription for Llandyfrydog
1895q4 451-453 no transcription for Llandyfrydog

Did he Marry?, if so, who?, any details from Cert.?...

Chris :)

http://newspapers.library.wales/search/advanced

(anything on above, surprising what can appear!)

How certain are you that he was born IN 1889, and not in 1888 or 1890????

Looking at freebmd.org.uk, there are two births for a Robert Hughes registered in 1889 in Anglesey, which is the Registration District that includes Llanfechell ..............

Births Jun 1889 (>99%)
Hughes Robert Pierce Anglesey 11b 499

Births Dec 1889 (>99%)
HUGHES Robert Anglesey 11b 439

Plus this one that could be for a birth between mid-November 1889 and March 31 1890 ...

Births Mar 1890 (>99%)
Hughes Robert Anglesey 11b 462


There are however 4 more Robert Hughes born in 1888 or 1890 that might have to be considered ...........

Births Sep 1888 (>99%)
HUGHES Robert Anglesey 11b 488

Births Jun 1890 (>99%)
Hughes Robert William Anglesey 11b 499

Births Dec 1890 (>99%)
Hughes Robert Anglesey 11b 424

Hughes Robert Anglesey 11b 424

https://familysearch.org/search/record/results?count=20&query=%2Bsurname%3Ahughes~%20%2Bbirth_place%3A%22Llanfechell%2C%20Anglesey%22~%20%2Bbirth_year%3A1880-1890~&offset=20

many hughes are here

1911 Wales Census
1910s
View Image

Name: Hugh Humphreys
Birth: abt 1890 - Tregele, Anglesey, Wales
Residence: 2 Apr 1911 - Llanfechell, Anglesey, Wales


1911 Wales Census

Name: Clara E Owen
Birth: abt 1887 - Tregele, Anglesey, Wales
Residence: 2 Apr 1911 - Llanfechell, Anglesey, Wales


Name: William Roberts
Birth: abt 1893 - Tregele, Anglesey, Wales
Residence: 2 Apr 1911 - Llanfechell, Anglesey, Wale

Name: Mary Williams
Birth: abt 1893 - Tregele, Anglesey, Wales
Residence: 2 Apr 1911 - Llanbabo and Llanfflewyn, Anglesey, Wales