Genealogy Chat

Hello I'm working on a friends tree but with few details.So if anyone can help with the following I would be very grateful.

I have looked on Fam.org already but cant find anything.

James Porteous dob unknown m ? Anderson...when?( born in Scotland)
Had a daughter Jean Margaret Porteous. b 30/7/31
M 26/3/55 wednesbury to Robert Elliott purdy b 14/5/21

James Porteous lived at leslie st.Portobello in Edinburgh

I'm wanting to know Jean's mothers first name, and their birth and marriage dates so I can then trace them on the census.

My friend has provided her parents dobs but has very little details of her grandparents.

I realise this is a bit of a longshot but any info would help. Failing that I could order her parents birth and marriage certs but just trying to see what I can achieve first.

Thankyou
Florence
in the hebrides

Jean's birth, for our reference:

Births Sep 1931 (>99%)
Porteous Jean M Anderson Pancras 1b 33

It's a pity she wasn't born in Scotland, as then the birth cert would tell you both parents' names and the place and date of their marriage!

Not seeing any marriage of a James Porteous to an Anderson, apart from one in Forres, nowhere near Portobello.
Maybe she wasn't Anderson when she married him ??

Possible birth for James - but we don't know if he was born in Portobello, or just lived there at some point:

PORTEOUS
JAMES WILLIAM
M
1898
685/6 155
Portobello

Does your friend have a copy of Jean's birth cert?

If so, please tell us all the information on it (assuming Jean's deceased).

Roughly when did James live in Portobello?

No sorry she doesn't hence the lack of details..She didn't know her grandparents as her dad was in the army and didn't settle in England til 1965 . I did ask her when they lived in Scotland but again nothing. jean prob lived there in the 1930's?

She has said she will email her sister who lives in Australia for any more details so will post them when I hear.
I did think it would be difficult with not much to go on but thnx just now for the info given.

Might be a day or 2 until I hear but will keep you posted.
Thanks very much for looking

Florence
in the hebrides

Jean Porteous was born in Pancras.

There are James Porteous's living in Pancras on the ER in the 1930's.

That birth certificate is really essential.

Added:
James Johnston Porteous is a name that keeps popping up, but born 1888, so too old? Try 1939 for full information (that I cannot access)

1939 in St Pancras doesn't look quite right.
( edit: I have mis understood the Army connection, so perhaps it is correct?)

This man was a Railway Buffet Attendant, plus, there are no closed records for this household. ?

13 Wakefield Street , St Pancras, London, England

James J Porteous 24 Jan 1888 Male Railway Buffet Attd Married
Elizabeth (amended to Elizabeth Cecilia) Porteous 26 Oct 1887 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties

Gertrude (E) Plume 25 Jul 1891 Female Paid Domestic Worker Widowed
John Thirwell 19 Jul 1915 Male Builders Labourer Hw Single

Birth of James Johnston Porteous ?

PORTEOUS
JAMES JOHNSTON
M
1888
668/ 31
Linlithgow

This appears to be the son of Robert Steele Porteous and Alice/Alison Taylor who married in Inveresk with Mussellburgh in 1881

1901 44 India Place, Edinburgh

Robert S Porteous 41 Coachbuilder
Alice Porteous 40
Frank Porteous 19
William Porteous 17
Elizabeth Porteous 14
**James Porteous 13
Lawrence Porteous 10
George Porteous 8
John Porteous 6
Robert Porteous 4
Alice Porteous 1


Family were still in Edinburgh at 1911
685/2 38/ 5
St Andrew
Midlothian

Robert 52
Alison 49
Elizabeth 24
James 23
George 18
John 16
Robert 14
Alice 11
Margaret 9
Minnie 8

No idea if this is Marriage is relevant as Forres is in Invernesshire (Moray)

PORTEOUS
JAMES JOHNSTON

ANDERSON
ELIZABETH ROBER
1913
137/ 43
Forres

( private tree shows 1957 divorce for this couple. I assume an RCE is attached)

James Johnston Porteous died in Leith in 1967 aged 79yrs

I wonder why this is?
Is Margaret Kelly Murdoch Ms Porteous the sister of the elusive James Porteous?
Is she the 9yr old Margaret Porteous on 1911 census in Edinburgh posted above?

I suspect so because the paternal grand parents of James Johnston Porteous were Francis Porteous and MARGARET KELLY ( father's parents)

Look at this...
Birth:
PORTEOUS
MARGARET KELLY
F
1901
685/1 1630
St George

Marriage:
MURDOCH
WILLIAM MATTHEW

PORTEOUS
MARGARET KELLY
1924
685/4 1030
St Giles

Jean Margaret Porteous and her brother William were both in Yorkshire at 1939
and in the household of THIS Murdoch couple
(FMP has mistranscribed the Index and placed both Porteous children in the next household.)

This is the correct info:
Little Merrybent Farm , Ripponden U.D., Yorkshire (West Riding), England

William M Murdoch 31 Dec 1900 Postman Married
Margaret K Murdoch 5 Aug 1901 Married. Home Duties
William J Porteous 7 Feb 1933 At School
***Jean M Porteous (Purdy) 2 Jul 1931 At School ***

Births Mar 1933
Porteous William J Anderson Finsbury 1b 680


Deaths
William Matthew Murdoch
Death Age: 92
Birth Date: 31 Dec 1900
Registration Date: Mar 1993
Registration district: Halifax
Inferred County: West Yorkshire
Register Number: A9C
District and Subdistrict: 0841A
Entry Number: 219

Margaret Kelly Murdoch
Death Age: 99
Birth Date: 5 Aug 1901
Registration Date: Jan 2001
Registration district: Huddersfield
Inferred County: West Yorkshire
Register Number: B56C
District and Subdistrict: 0891C
Entry Number: 62

I had noticed the Forres marriage, but thought it couldn't be relevant.
But of course, it may well be!

Just in case, here's Elizabeth Anderson's birth (probably):

ANDERSON
ELIZABETH ROBER....
F
1886
125/ 29
Alves


Elizabeth R Anderson
in the 1901 Scotland Census
Name: Elizabeth R Anderson
Age: 14
Estimated birth year: abt 1887
Relationship: Daur (Daughter)
Father's name: William Anderson
Gender: Female
Where born: Alves, Elginshire
Registration Number: 125
Registration district: Alves
Civil Parish: Alves
County: Moray
Address: Gateside Toll
Occupation: Grocers Assistant
ED: 2
Household schedule number: 68
LINE: 13
Roll: CSSCT1901_38
Household Members:
Name Age
William Anderson 49
Jessie W Anderson 17
Sophia R Anderson 16
Elizabeth R Anderson 14
Jeannie C Anderson 13
Williamina Anderson 10
Robert A Anderson 9




Elizabeth K Anderson
in the 1891 Scotland Census
Name: Elizabeth K Anderson
Age: 4
Estimated birth year: abt 1887
Relationship: Daur (Daughter)
Father's name: William Anderson
Mother's name: Jane Anderson
Gender: Female
Where born: Alves, Elginshire
Registration Number: 125
Registration district: Alves
Civil Parish: Alves
County: Moray
Address: Gateside (Toll)
ED: 2
Household schedule number: 71
LINE: 5
Roll: CSSCT1891_36
Household Members:
Name Age
William Anderson 40
Jane Anderson 33 - born Straiton, Ayrshire
Jessie W Anderson 7
Sophia M Anderson 6
Elizabeth K Anderson 4
Jane Cameron Anderson 3
Williamina Anderson 7 Mo
Maggie Moss 17
Andrew Pirie 17
James Macdonald 13


Death of Elizabeth's mother:

ANDERSON
JANE
36
1894
125/ 10
Alves

Ancestry suggests this is Jane's birth - could be, if her maiden name was also Anderson:


Jane Anderson
in the Scotland, Select Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950
Name: Jane Anderson
Gender: Female
Birth Date: 28 Sep 1858
Birth Place: Straiton,Ayr,Scotland
Father: David Anderson
Mother: Martha Reid
FHL Film Number: 6035516


So - just in case -


Jane Anderson
in the 1861 Scotland Census
Name: Jane Anderson
Age: 2
Estimated birth year: abt 1859
Relationship: Daughter
Father's name: David Anderson
Mother's name: Martha Anderson
Gender: Female
Where born: Straiton, Ayrshire
Registration Number: 617
Registration district: Straiton
Civil Parish: Straiton
County: Ayrshire
Address: Collier Row No 41
Occupation: Scholar
ED: 7
Household schedule number: 66
LINE: 6
Roll: CSSCT1861_90
Household Members:
Name Age
David Anderson 33 - Ireland
Martha Anderson 32 - Ireland
Samuel Anderson 9
David Anderson 6
Mary Anderson 4
Jane Anderson 2
Robert Anderson 8 Mo
Fredrick Lindsay 20


Jane Anderson
in the 1871 Scotland Census
Name: Jane Anderson
Age: 13
Estimated birth year: abt 1858
Relationship: Daughter
Father's name: David Anderson
Mother's name: Martha Anderson
Gender: Female
Where born: Patna, Ayrshire
Registration Number: 617
Registration district: Straiton
Civil Parish: Straiton
County: Ayrshire
Address: High Row 16
Occupation: Scholar
ED: 7
Household schedule number: 63
LINE: 6
Roll: CSSCT1871_115
Household Members:
Name Age
David Anderson 46
Martha Anderson 43
Samuel Anderson 19
David Anderson 17
Mary Anderson 15
Jane Anderson 13
Robert Anderson 11
Martha Anderson 9


Don't see a marriage to William, though.

Hi everyone.Firstly a huge thankyou for all the info.

Now I have a few for details.Jeans father James apparently worked on the railway between Edinburgh and London which does fit with whats been found. My friend who is jeans daughter has told me that her father Robert Purdy was in the army. She was born in Singapore in 1958 and going to school til she was 7 in Aiden. Then returned here in 1965.

The only strange thing is that James Porteous and his wife Elizabeth would have been in their 40's before jean and William were born! possible I guess but unusual given when they were born.

I'm still waiting for some more details they may fit the pieces together but it would seem like you have between you found what Ive been looking for so thnkyou.

Of course I will pop back here as soon as I have anything else.

Florence
in the Hebrides.
:-)

I am not convinced that the woman on the 1939 register in St Pancras with James J Porteous is Elizabeth Robertson Anderson.

DOB is given as 26 Oct 1887 which does not match to a birth registration of 1886 in Alves.
Secondly,her entry appears to has been amended.
Wrtitten in green ink above her name it says: Cecilia Elizabeth


Also note that James's name is crossed through in red ink?
Does anyone know what "See page 10" means?

See clip..
https://www.genesreunited.co.uk/keepsafe/asset/details/59516602

Clip of Murdoch/ Porteous household:
https://www.genesreunited.co.uk/keepsafe/asset/details/59516615

EDIT:
A wee tip when using SP...
If searching for a maiden/other name on a death.

EG: 1894 death index in Alves for 36yr old Jane Anderson
ANDERSON
JANE
36
1894
**125/ 10

Retain/ input all info relating to death, ( first name, age, year, place)
Remove last name and hit update

The other name on this index is: ANDREW

ANDREW
JANE
36
1894
**125/ 10
Alves

Marriage
ANDREW
JEANIE

ANDERSON
WILLIAM
1882
586/ 30
Dalmellington


Her Birth .
Jane Andrew
Gender Female
Birth Date 19 Dec 1857
Birthplace STRAITON,AYR,SCOTLAND
Father's Name Robert Andrew
Mother's Name Janet Wight

NOTE
1st daughter born to the Anderson/ Andrew marriage is called Janet Wight Anderson. B 1884 and registered in Alves

Look what I found...
Definitely the brother of Jean Margaret Porteous as his DOB matches with 1939 Register

Mr William James Johnstone Porteous
Gender: Male
Age: 78
Birth Date: 7 Feb 1933
Death Date: 11 Mar 2011
Residence Place at Death: Southsea, Hampshire, England
Postal Code District: Po4
Knowing his full name, suggests that we are on the right track but, I too am confused about the time frame of these childrens births?

Both born almost 20yrs after a 1913 marriage?
If there were other, older children, I guess they were Scots born

Perhaps someone should contact the private ancestry tree holder BJBruce68.
This tree name suggests that the owner is researching all Anderson descendants and yes, almost everyone that we have discussed, appears on the index for this tree.
The index info indicates that the owner holds the 1913 marriage and also that they were divorced in 1965.
1933 birth of William JJ Porteous also appears on this tree but as it's private, I cannot be certain that there isn't a missing link

Thanks Glasgow lass. I have been intouch with my friend whos contacting her sister in Sydney who hopefully can provide some more info so we can see whether we have the correct family.

yes I agree too about the time lapse from marriage to birth!

Will let you know as soon as I here anything
Thankyou
Florence
in the hebrides

Hi there
Sorry it took a while for my friend to get some info but it is confirmed her grandparents were indeed James Johnstone Porteous and Elizabeth Anderson. But she says they were not divorced as in 1967 they were living with her in Portishead!(altho he died that year).

So for now I have enough information to make good start.

Thnks for all your contributions

Florence
in the hebrides :-)

On the 1939 register Elizabeth's names was changed to Cecilia Elizabeth.

Is the 1951 Haymarket marriage of James Johnstone Porteous and Cecilia E just a coincidence?

Re GlasgowLass's query about "See page 10" on the 1939 register:

https://tinyurl.com/y8hev48l

7. What does it mean when an entry is crossed out and marked ‘See page…?’

These refer to ‘continuation entries’ where the line in the ‘postings’ column (see Section 2.3 Closed records) against a person’s name was full up, and a new line had to be created for any new entries.

The new line was added at the back of the enumeration book or sometimes at the back of the next book in large enumeration districts that comprised two or more books. If you have arrived at an entry by means of a personal name search the navigation arrow on the right side of the page should link to the page containing the continuation entry. However, this is very unlikely to contain any additional information.

The bride in the 1951 marriage mentioned by AQ has an unusual surname.

This is the only birth of anyone with that name that I can see.

PLEASE NOTE: I'm not necessarily suggesting this is James Porteous's bride - just posting it because it's the only one I can see.
BUT she's not born 1887, as the woman in 1939 is:

Cecilia Malaune
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Birth Index, 1837-1915
Name: Cecilia Malaune
Registration Year: 1899
Registration Quarter: Jan-Feb-Mar
Registration district: Swansea
Inferred County: Glamorgan
Volume: 11a
Page: 1000



MALAUNE, CECILIA mms CARVER
GRO Reference: 1899 M Quarter in SWANSEA Volume 11A Page 1000


Parents ??

Marriages Sep 1891 (>99%)
Carver Charlotte St. Saviour 1d 386
Malaune Patrick St. Saviour 1d 386


I can't see any of them in censuses.
A Charlotte Malaune died in Reading in 1940 (born 1871).

It's certainly odd. Has anyone found a death or remarriage for Cecilia or Elizabeth?

Florence states that James was not divorced- but is it possible that he (or Cecilia) might have been previously married (many years earlier), and not free to marry until 1951?

Florence- your friend said that 'THEY' were living with her in Portishead in 1967- so does your friend know when James' wife died?

I can't find anything either for Ceclia E Malaune/ Porteous.

AG- If Cecilia E MALAUNE had been previously ANDERSON, would the entry in the 1951 Scottish marriage index show both her names?

If Florence's friend's grandparents were definitely James Johnstone Porteous and Elizabeth Anderson , and were together in 1967, they must have been a different couple from the one who divorced in 1957 - unless perhaps they got back together again later without actually remarrying.


Wondering about this 1911 record, re soldiers in India:

James Porteous
in the 1911 England Census
Name: James Porteous
Age in 1911: 22
Estimated birth year: abt 1889
Birth Place: Edinburgh, Midlothian, Scotland
Search Photos:
County/Island: Military
Country: England
Military Unit: 1st Battn Seaport Highlanders
Registration District Number: 641
ED, institution, or vessel: India
Piece: 34990


As Florence's friend's parents were in India, perhaps her grandparents were too??