Genealogy Chat

Greetings. Were all deaths recorded late 1800's as I fail to find one? Any further guidance much appreciated thanks in advance. regards salutations! WD

Welcome to the boards WilD.

Your heading has 1937, presume from the OP that you are meaning 1837.

Would you like to say who you are looking for, when you last know they were alive and where you would expect to find the death. Perhaps you could post the last census you have him/her on and/or with family.

Deaths should have been recorded post 1837 (and indeed as burials prior to that in the parish that they occurred), but sometimes a bit of lateral thinking is required.

Name not spelt as expected, died out of expected area, age wrongly recorded etc

(my own gg Grandfather's death is not recorded and he was noted as "last seen alive February 1860" when his wife/widow was eventually granted administration of his estate in 1868

Not all deaths occur when and where you might expect.

Also, some second 'marriages' took place without the first spouse actually having died.

We all have ancestors who disappeared off the planet!

There's the possibility that your missing person has been registered as an unidentified body if found drowned or such like.
In addition, you do have to consider the dreaded name changers!

Have you considered that they may have emigrated or were a member of one of the military forces? If they died abroad, there's no guarantee the death was recorded in the UK.

Thank you to Greyghost and ErikaH my apologies for clumsiness Im still finding my way around! Death I would like to find is "Sarah Ellen Brightwell Rawlings Dudman" my Fathers mother about 1898 Southwark St Savior. Ive got the Birth Cert and Ive got the Birth Cert of my father in 1894 and his sister 1892 and bro 1891. But I cant find her death or for that matter the marriage cert its driven me slightly mad so I must be doing something wrong? Any guidance warmly welcome and as always man thanks.

What info is on the birth cert of your father

Have you found them on any census

What is the name of the father

These ones ??
DUDMAN, ELIZABETH RAWLINGS Order
GRO Reference: 1892 S Quarter in ST SAVIOUR LONDON Volume 01D Page 81

DUDMAN, HENRY WILLIAM RAWLINGS Order
GRO Reference: 1894 S Quarter in ST SAVIOUR LONDON Volume 01D Page 154

Not seeing the other brother

Ok the names are showing

DUDMAN, JOHN THOMAS BRIGHTWELL RAWLINGS
GRO Reference: 1891 M Quarter in ST SAVIOUR LONDON Volume 01D Page 79 Order

Going by your tree on here I'm assuming that your father is Henry Dudman. If so is this the family in 1901:-

1901 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
12, Wadding Street, Newington, St Saviour Southwark, London & Surrey, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Birth place Occupation

John Dudman Head Widower Male 49 1852 Walworth, Surrey, England General Blacksmith
John Thomas Dudman Son Single Male 10 1891 Southwark, Surrey, England -
Elizabeth Dudman Daughter Single Female 9 1892 Southwark, Surrey, England -
Henry Dudman Son Single Male 7 1894 Southwark, Surrey, England<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Kath. x

1891 census

Name: John Thos Dudman
Gender: Male
Age: 7/12
Relationship: Son
Birth Year: 1890
Father: John Dudman
Mother: Sarah Ellen Dudman
Birth Place: Southwark, London, England
Civil Parish: St George the Martyr
Residence Place: St George the Martyr, London, England
Sub registration district: London Road
ED, Institution or Vessel: 2
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 348
Folio: 41
Household Members:
Name Age
John Dudman 34
Sarah Ellen Dudman 20
John Thos Dudman 7/12


So she was quite a lot younger that John senior

Her birth
Births Sep 1871
Rawlings Sarah Ellen B St. Saviour 1d 77

GRO record
RAWLINGS, SARAH ELLEN BRIGHTWELL SPARGO Order
GRO Reference: 1871 S Quarter in SAINT SAVIOUR SURREY Volume 01D Page 77

Her parents

Marriages Mar 1870
RAWLINGS Thomas Brightwell St. Saviour 1d 188
Spargo Ellen Fanny

Edit. her baptism

Name: Sarah Ellen Brightwell Rawlings
Gender: Female
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 4 Apr 1883
Baptism Place: Walworth St John the Evangelist, Southwark, England
Father: Thomas Rawlings occ bookmaker
Mother: Ellen Rawlings
Register Type: Parish Registers

Is it possible that the couple just separated and went their separate ways. There is this marriage (I know it would be bigamous but that wasn't unusual at that time when divorce was virtually impossible for ordinary people to get):-

England & Wales marriages 1837-2005 Transcription

First name(s) SARAH ELLEN
Last name DUDMAN
Marriage quarter 3
Marriage year 1905
Registration month -
MarriageFinder™ SARAH ELLEN DUDMAN married one of these people
William Gibson Campbell, Stanley Alfred Carpenter
District Islington
District number -
County London
Country England
Volume 1B
Volume as transcribed 1B
Page number 772
Record set England & Wales Marriages 1837-2005
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Civil Marriage & Divorce
Collections from Great Britain, England

Kath. x

Doesn't look like they married and as john dudman say widower wonder if this is her

The age is about right too for an 1871 birth ,area too

Deaths Sep 1898
Rawlings Sarah 29 St. Saviour 1d 54

That looks more likely Shirley. Please ignore the 1905 marriage I posted.

Kath. x

He varies with his birth year on each census so this looks possible too

View England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1837-1915

Name: John Dudman
Estimated birth year: abt 1852
Registration Year: 1901
Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec
Age at Death: 49
Registration district: Camberwell
Parishes for this Registration District: View Ecclesiastical Parishes associated with this Registration District
Inferred County: London
Volume: 1d
Page: 495

Hello and thank you all above for your guidance. Your findings above are correct re siblings to my dad. It does substantiate my thoughts that Sarah and John never married but why would it say in the 1901 census he was a Widower? of course he could have been married previously as he was certainly old enough!! My Father had a habit of keeping his cards very close to his chest when it came to his age also and although he was a kid at the time late 1890's he would have picked that up as a trait. In fact my Mother never knew his age! But I have the b and d certs of John in 1852 and the b cert of Sarah in 1871 and I am keen to obtain her death so I will go with your findings above re:Sarah Rawlings! On the 1901 census at 12 Wadding Street there is her sister living next door maybe in her shock she recorded her maiden name by error or why? I will post the result of the cert or PDF when I get it as I believe that is customary again thank you. WD.

He may have given his status as widower as he had his children living with him with no wife or housekeeper listed

Folks stretched truth to cover up iligitmancy and bigamy sometimes as they wanted to keep their business private

He probably thought himself as a widower anyway

Thank you to all above for help. And apology for my blooper I headed the post as 1937 as pointed out by greyghost it should have been 1837 so feel bad about that.
Ive got John the Blacksmith d cert 1901 age 49 so that at least ties his birth to 1852.
Ive sent for the PDF version Ive not done that before its supposed to be quicker and have just as much info on?
Ill fill in any holes when I get it in a few days? Again thank you all above and terribly sorry for the daft typo! WD.

The posted version of a certificate is basically the PDF image printed onto ‘official’ paper. There’s no difference in the details.

Oh is it oh thank you Detective so can make a fair saving over several! Thanks. I also seem to have a cert stuck wonder how long we give them before we send a reminder? oh well be good to hopefully get the PDF thanks! WD.

You say:
I also seem to have a cert stuck wonder how long we give them before we send a reminder?

If you mean a full cert sent by post, and assuming you haven't requested priority service, they aim to send out certs four working days after receiving the order (if you quoted a ref number), or on the 15th working day if you didn't.

Then it depends how long the post takes - I believe there's still some backlog after the snow in some areas.