Genealogy Chat

https://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/military_chat/thread/1385449

https://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/military_chat/thread/1372385

Marriage cert: 8th June, 1874

George Chatfield - batchelor - labourer
Bridget Dempsey - spinster
Both full age
Address: Tonbridge
Father: Thomas Chatfield - labourer
Father: Michael Dempsey - labourer

Not as helpful as hoped as full address not given, nor age of couple.

I'm certain that George Chatfield & George Smith are the same person.

On viewing granddad's marriage cert (1938) states: Bertie Smith (otherwise Chatfield).

Thanks for info on Bertie (jnr) that is certainly our man.

But info not right for Bert (snr). Bert (snr) seems to fall off the radar after the 1901 Census when he was 13 and reappears in the 1920s in Medway. Told by mother-in-law that he had been in the Army and there was mention of time in India, but maybe that was only fabrication. He would have been around 26 when WW1 started, so thought he would have been called up, unless he was in a 'reserved occupation'. Perhaps in went into the Army as a boy soldier!

Around 70% of WW1 full records were destroyed during WW2 bombing. Unless you know differently, his may be among them.

This one seems to young.

Name: Bertie Smith
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Chatham, Kent, England
Enlistment Age: 18
Regimental Number: 24356
Regiment Name: Roy Horse Arty
Number of Images: 22
Form Title: Short Service Attestation
Family Members:
Name Relation to Soldier
Bertie Smith Self (Head)
John Smith Father
Jane Smith Mother

Enlisted in 1902 so yob c1884. Parents lived at Speedgate, Fawkham Kent
..........

Name: Bertie Smith
Gender: Male
Document Year: 1915
Residence Place: 19 St Margarets Road, Elmers End Nr Beckenham Kent
Regimental Number: 42318
Regiment Name: Devonshire Regiment
Number of Images: 17
Form Title: Territorial Force Attestation
Family Members:
Name Relation to Soldier
Bertie Smith Self (Head)

In 1915 he was a butchers assistant. Born 1899
........

Ask your local library if they have the Library Edition for Ancestry and/or Findmypast. If so, you can search surviving WW1 records in person for free.

Lance Corporal
SMITH, BERTIE CYRIL
Service Number CH/X 113349
Died 22/02/1945
Detachment 385.
Royal Marines
Commemorated on CHATHAM NAVAL MEMORIAL 82, 1.

Son of Gertrude Emily Smith, of Gillingham, Kent.

His records would be with the MOD. It costs £30 to order a copy.

This is the link for obtaining UK service records:
http://www.veterans-uk.info/service_records/service_records.html

You might find a notice in a local paper - try Medway Archives.

Can I checkout newspaper reports of family without incurring a fee?

Is it possible to get Military service and records without having to pay for the service as we know Bertie Smith (1888) and his son Bertie Cyril (1924) were in the army. We believe Bertie senior was in India. We know Bertie Cyril was a war hero (Marine in Detachment 385) and died in Burma under enemy fire but when did he join the forces and where?All quite insignificant information but we would love to learn more.

Rosina was registered as a Chatfield at birth (with mmn Dempsey).

1911 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Woodside Green Lenham Near Maidstone, Lenham, Kent, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Birth place Occupation
Walter Neaves Head Married Male 31 1880 Lenham Kent General Labourer
Rosina Neaves Wife Married Female 27 1884 Lenham Kent -
William Neaves Son - Male 8 1903 Lenham Kent School
Auther Neaves Son - Male 5 1906 Lenham Kent -
Percy Neaves Son - Male 3 1908 Lenham Kent -

Her children appear to be registered with mmn Smith not Chatfield

NEAVES, WILLIAM WALTER SMITH Order
GRO Reference: 1902 D Quarter in HOLLINGBOURNE Volume 02A Page 840

NEAVES, ARTHUR JAMES SMITH Order
GRO Reference: 1906 M Quarter in HOLLINGBOURNE Volume 02A Page 915

NEAVES, PERCY SMITH Order
GRO Reference: 1907 D Quarter in HOLLINGBOURNE Volume 02A Page 860

The Rosina who married Walter Neaves in 1901 is shown as Rosina Chatfield SMITH, on the transcription and original - not Rosina Chatfield-Smith

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Marriages Dec 1901 (>99%)
MERCER Hephzibah Hollingbourne 2a 1684
Neaves Walter Hollingbourn 2a 1684
SMITH Rosina Chatfield Hollingbourn 2a 1684
WHITENSTALL George A Hollingbourn 2a 1684

2 doors away is an OLIVER family - all born Lingfield

1871 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Ray Lane End, Lingfield, East Grinstead, Surrey, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
John Oliver Head - Male 51 1820 - Surrey, England
Sarah Oliver Wife - Female 45 1826 - Surrey, England
John Oliver Son - Male 22 1849 - Surrey, England
Frederick Oliver Son - Male 18 1853 - Surrey, England
Anthony Oliver Son - Male 11 1860 - Surrey, England
George Oliver Son - Male 10 1861 - Surrey, England
Arthur Oliver Son - Male 7 1864 - Surrey, England
Ann Oliver Daughter - Female 2 1869 - Surrey, England

AustinQ posted this 1871 census with George and Elizabeth as lodgers -

1871 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Lyne House Cottage, Lingfield, East Grinstead, Surrey, England

George Chatfield Lodger - Male 23 1848 Ag lab, Fletching Sussex,
Elizabeth Chatfield Wife - Female 22 1849 Lambeth Surrey, England

The people they are lodging with are actually on the previous page of the census - and guess who? ---

1871 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Lyne House Cottage, Lingfield, East Grinstead, Surrey, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Thomas Chatfield Head - Male 52 1819 - Sussex, England
Elizabeth Chatfield Wife - Female 51 1820 - Buckinghamshire, England
William Chatfield Son - Male 12 1859 - Sussex, England
Rebecca Chatfield Daughter - Female 10 1861 - Sussex, England
Rosina Chatfield Daughter - Female 7 1864 - Kent, England
Trayton Chatfield Son - Male 6 1865 - Kent, England

Name: Mother's Maiden Surname:
CHATFIELD, ROSINA OLIVER Order
GRO Reference: 1863 J Quarter in TONBRIDGE Volume 02A Page 466 Order

I don't see a marriage for a George Chatfield to an Elizabeth.

But daughter Mary Elizabeth mmn Dempsey was born before the 1874 marriage of George and Bridget, but birth registered as Chatfield.

It amazing what you have all found out for me and I thank you for all the help.

I think the article is my George, what an eye opener to our ancestors eh! It is possible to check news papers without incurring a charge?

1871 Census

George & Elizabeth Chatfield. Could this Elizabeth be our Bridget (alias Fanny/Francis) as she was born the same year 1849 and birth town is also Lambeth?

George has been known to use the surname Oliver which is his mother's maiden name and her Christian name is Elizabeth; something to consider!!

Don't bother using GR for bmd's -

Far better to use this site for bmd's from Q3 1837 to c 1970's
https://www.freebmd.org.uk

After that you will have to use a commercial site.

It won't give ages at death up to1865 but then does and it won't give mmn for births pre Q3 1911 so then use this one - you have to register but it's free to use

https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro

There, births go up to 1917 and deaths to 1957 and then you're back to freebmd/commercial sites

----------------
You say -
There was another child: George Chatfield b.1877, Tunbridge Wells, according to the 1881 Census

this will be the George Chatfield born Q2 1876 that I posted already. He is listed as age 4 so the enumerator would have taken 1881 - 4 = 1877, but if he was born after April 3rd 1876 which is very likely then he would still be only 4 in 1881 at census time (taken 3rd April) . You have to remember this when looking at ages/birth years on census and also remember too that not all ages given were accurate.

George with his family in 1851:

1851 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Merrians Cottage, Fletching, Uckfield, Sussex, England

Thomas Chatfield Head Married Male 26 1825 Agricultural Labourer Maresfield, Sussex,
Elizabeth Chatfield Wife Married Female 21 1830 - Buckinghamshire,
George Chatfield Son - Male 3 1848 - Fletching, Sussex, England
Thomas H Chatfield Son - Male 0 1851 - Fletching, Sussex,
Rebecca Oliver Servant - Female 14 1837 General Servant Heathfield, Sussex,
---------------------------------

This is Birth for George and his brother, Thomas:

CHATFIELD, GEORGE (mother's maiden name: OLIVER)
GRO Reference: 1848 M Quarter in UCKFIELD Volume 07 Page 530

CHATFIELD, THOMAS HENRY (mother's maiden name: OLIVER )
GRO Reference: 1850 J Quarter in UCKFIELD Volume 07 Page 549
------------------------------------

Parents married in 1847. George is not with his parents in 1861.
----------------------------------

Then this in the paper- which could be your George?:

Maidstone Telegraph 27 March 1869

On Wednesday before Lieut- Colonel Edward Loyd, George Oliver, alias George Chatfield, labourer of Maresfield, Sussex, was charged on suspicion of having on the night of the 10th of March, burglariously entered the dwelling house of Wm. Croucher at Frittenden. There was no evidence adduced to sustain the charge, but it transpired that the prisoner is a deserter from the 76th Regiment stationed at Shorncliffe and the magistrates ordered the man be taken to his depot and handed over to the military authorities.
----------------------------

I wondered if George had changed his name to avoid the military authorities, or if perhaps he was in trouble again after the incident in 1869?

Or perhaps he had been previously married (or living with a partner) and wanting to avoid that person?

1871 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Lyne House Cottage, Lingfield, East Grinstead, Surrey, England

George Chatfield Lodger - Male 23 1848 Ag lab, Fletching Sussex,
Elizabeth Chatfield Wife - Female 22 1849 Lambeth Surrey, England

You don't usually see any other family members named on marriage certificates or Parish Registers for any family member other than the father and his occupation.

Hi

Obviously lost my last note. Never mind here goes again.

On Genes Reuniteed records there is a marriage for George Chatfield in 1874 but there is no spouse details attached. Whereas with Bridget's entry it is attached to Henry Bonwick and Ellen Woodman!

Details of Marriage certificate for:

The Parish Church in the Parish of Tonbridge

8th June 1874
George Chatfield and Bridget Dempsey
Age: 'both full age'
Bachelor & spinster
Labourer & blank
Residence: 'Tonbridge' & 'Tonbridge'
Fathers' names: Thomas Chatfield & Michael Dempsey - both labourers

Witnesses:

1. George Garland
2. Elizabeth Chatfield

There was another child: George Chatfield b.1877, Tunbridge Wells, according to the 1881 Census but he died 23rd (unclear but looks like September) 1887, Lenham in the Parish of Hollingbourne, aged 11 - I have a photo of death certificate.

I have a photos of birth certificates for:

Mary Elizabeth Chatfield - 14/11/1872, Tonbridge
Alfred Horice Chatfield - 02/01/1879, Sevenoaks
Walter Smith - 23/08/1881, East Sutton
Rosina Chatfield-Smith -01/10/1883 , Boughton Malhebe
Annie Smith - 01/07/1885, Headcorn
Bertie Smith - 16/03/1888, Lenham

I have a photos of marriage certificates for:

Walter CHATFIELD to a Florence Mary Ann Parker on 24/01/1920 - father's name George Chatfield. He was registered at birth as a Smith.
Rosina Chatfield-Smith to a Walter ??? (name not clear) 1901 - father's name George Smith.

Annie Chatfield-Smith to a Edward John Stedman on 23/09/1904 - father's name George Smith

Photos of some certificate not very clear, but could possibly get better copies from owner.

and the rest of the details are ............??

First witness on Chatfield/Dempsey is a George Garland.

Hope this helps, along with the other information sent earlier - I think. Can't find record of earlier note!!

posted earlier by greyghost ........

I just wonder if George Chatfield and George Smith are one and the same person?

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Births Mar 1848 (>99%)
CHATFIELD George Uckfield 7 530

Uckfield RD covers Maresfield where George Smith says he was born.

however there are numerous George Smith's born Uckfield RD

----------------

I wondered if mmn might have been Smith ........

Birth registration from GRO Index for the George Chatfield born in 1848, with mmn (mother's maiden name)

CHATFIELD, GEORGE mmn OLIVER
GRO Reference: 1848 M Quarter in UCKFIELD Volume 07 Page 530


Only 2 George Smith's born 1846-1850 and registered in Uckfield ......

SMITH, GEORGE mmn DRAWBRIDGE
GRO Reference: 1846 J Quarter in UCKFIELD Volume 07 Page 528

SMITH, GEORGE mmn REED
GRO Reference: 1848 D Quarter in UCKFIELD Volume 07 Page 515

I don't understand when you say Bridget married George in 1874 but records don't show who George married.

Here is the transcription taken from the GRO index showing the marriage - (an Ellen and Henry Bonwick can be found on the 1881 census in Tunbridge).

Whichever name you put in initially the other comes up

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Marriages Jun 1874 (>99%)
BONWICK Henry Tunbridge 2a 868
Chatfield George Tunbridge 2a 868 <<<<<<<<
DEMPSEY Bridget Tunbridge 2a 868 <<<<<<<<
Woodman Ellen Tunbridge 2a 868

If you actually have the marriage certificate can you post all the information it contains please - where the marriage took place, names, ages, abode and occupations of bride and groom, name and occupation of Fathers and if deceased. Names of witnesses.

I have posted the pre and post 1883 births with both Chatfield and Smith registrations (spelling of mmn suspect on a couple but think they are possibly correct. Just missing 1 if Bridget had 11 as she says in 1911.

Mary Elizabeth 1872 so pre marriage, Alice 1874, George 1876, Alfred Horace are registered as Chatfield
then comes Walter in 1881 as Smith
before back to Chatfield for Rosina 1883
and then back to Smith for Annie 1885, Bertie 1888, Emily Dora 1891 and ?George Frank 1893

So I'm wondering if Bridget married George Chatfield and for some reason THEY changed their name to SMITH and she to Frances as it wasn't so stand out as Bridget.