Genealogy Chat

Yes, I know, Sylvia.

I just meant that you have to enter the surnames one by one to check the mms - a laborious process when checking dozens of births - whereas if she had been born from 3rd qr onwards in 1911 , all the mms would show up at once.

AG ................

You can see mmn on GRO Index ............... but it is slower than Freebmd.

Assuming she was actually born in London, as we are led to believe, all the Cathleens 1909-10 are accounted for, either with mms not Gray, or found in 1911 census.

This one's illegitimate, but is with her grandparents (and presumably her mother) in 1911 - posting for elimination purposes:

FERGUSON, CATHLEEN -
GRO Reference: 1909 D Quarter in STEPNEY Volume 01C Page 316


Kathleen Ferguson
in the 1911 England Census
Name: Kathleen Ferguson
Age in 1911: 1
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1910
Relation to Head: Grandchild
Gender: Female
Birth Place: LIMEHOUSE, Middlesex, England
Civil Parish: Limehouse
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street address: 6 St Annes Row, Limehouse E
Registration district: Stepney
Registration District Number: 20
Sub-registration district: Limehouse
ED, institution, or vessel: 15
Piece: 1562
Household Members:
Name Age
John Ferguson 66
Elizabeth Ferguson 19
Mena Ferguson 17
Amelia Ferguson 14
Kathleen Ferguson 1


I checked the Kates in St Giles while checking the Cathleens.

There are dozens of Kates in other parts of London - haven't checked all those!
No Grays.

No "female"s in St Giles in the right time span.
Dozens in other parts of London, but no Grays.

If only she'd been born in 1911, it would be so much easier to spot illegitimate births!

???possibility........... registered as Kate, female, Cathleen??????

Have you been in contact with Kenneth who has Kathleen born 1910 lewisham.

He looks to be the Grandson of Ada Florence Wood nee Gray.

Maryb.

No help with Kathleen but this looks like Maud in 1939. She married in 1912


1939 REGISTER TRANSCRIPTION
Hall Household (4 People)
196 Kingsbridge Road , Merton and Morden U.D., Surrey, England

Maud Mary Hall
DOB 19 Aug 1889
SEX Female
OCCUPATION Housewife
MARITAL STATUS Married
SCHEDULE 418
SCHEDULE SUB NUMBER 2

Herbert J Hall
DOB 28 Jan 1885
SEX Male
OCCUPATION Police Pensioner
MARITAL STATUS Married
SCHEDULE 418
SCHEDULE SUB NUMBER 1

Violet Fowles
DOB 28 Aug 1915
SEX Female
OCCUPATION Pa? Meat Fitter
MARITAL STATUS Single
SCHEDULE 418
SCHEDULE SUB NUMBER 3

Leonard G Fowles
DOB 17 Feb 1912
SEX Male
OCCUPATION Electrician Supply Company
MARITAL STATUS Single
SCHEDULE 418
SCHEDULE SUB NUMBER 4
Ref: RG101/1366B/06/08 Letter Code:
© Findmypast Ltd

However, this might be her in 1911:

Kathleen Hitchcook [ Hitchcock on image]
in the 1911 England Census
Name: Kathleen Hitchcook
Age in 1911: 1
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1910
Relation to Head: Foster Child
Gender: Female
Birth Place: London, United Kingdom
Civil Parish: Lambeth
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street address: 12 Aytoun Road, Stockwell S W
Registration district: Lambeth
Registration District Number: 25
Sub-registration district: Stockwell
ED, institution, or vessel: 30
Piece: 2036

What looks like a possible brother Gustave, aged 3, another foster child , isn't a brother. His mother's name was Bloxham.

No, that one's mms was Bates:


WILLIAMS, KATHLEEN mms BATES
GRO Reference: 1910 M Quarter in ST GILES Volume 01B Page 532

I've been through all the children called Kathleen, or with Kathleen as a middle name, born in St Giles 1909-11, and none of them has mms Gray.

If she's a grandchild, then she must be the daughter of one of the sons.

This one was born illegitimately:

HITCHCOCK, KATHLEEN -
GRO Reference: 1909 S Quarter in ST GILES Volume 01B Page 538

She would still have been aged 1 (as stated) by 2 April 1911.

could kathleen have been born williams

Births Mar 1910
WILLIAMS Kathleen St Giles 1b 532

GRAY, ELLEN JANE ORR
GRO Reference: 1886 S Quarter in ST SAVIOUR SURREY Volume 01D Page 142

GRAY, MAUD MARY ORR
GRO Reference: 1888 D Quarter in ST SAVIOUR SURREY Volume 01D Page 167

GRAY, JOHN HENRY ORR
GRO Reference: 1892 D Quarter in ST GILES Volume 01B Page 588

GRAY, WILLIAM THOMAS ORR
GRO Reference: 1895 J Quarter in STRAND Volume 01B Page 649

GRAY, ADA FLORENCE ORR
GRO Reference: 1890 D Quarter in ST SAVIOUR LONDON Volume 01D Page 143

RAY, EDITH ESTHER ORR
GRO Reference: 1897 J Quarter in STRAND Volume 01B Page 623

GRAY, MABEL ORR
GRO Reference: 1902 J Quarter in ST GILES Volume 01B Page 587

GRAY, MINNIE ELIZABETH ORR
GRO Reference: 1904 J Quarter in ST GILES Volume 01B Page 599

GRAY, ALBERT EDWARD ORR
GRO Reference: 1907 S Quarter in ST GILES Volume 01B Page 543

"IF" the Lewisham birth is the correct one, it must have been an illegitimate birth, but the father took responsibility - either John Henry or William Thomas.

There's no marriage of either of them to a Niven, 1900-1920, in England/Wales, or Scotland.
In fact, there are no Gray / Niven marriages at all in that period in England/Wales.

1911 isn't entirely accurate (apart from whether or not Kathleen was a daughter). It says 6 children, all alive, none deceased.
Maybe John senior thought it meant the six who were at home in 1911 - and included Kathleen.

But there were nine (not counting Kathleen):

1901 - Ellen, Maud, Ada, John, William, Edith
1911 - John, Edith, Mabel, Minnie, Albert


It's possible that this is William T's death ???? (but it's a common name):

GRAY, WILLIAM THOMAS 21
GRO Reference: 1917 M Quarter in ISLINGTON Volume 01B Page 321

The 1939 information came from the 1939 Register on Findmypast.

This looks like Mary Kate Gray in the 1939 register:-

Household (1 Person)
Lambeth Hospital Brook Drive , Lambeth, London, England

FIRST NAME(S) LAST NAME(S) ROLE DOB SEX OCCUPATION MARITAL STATUS SCHEDULE SCHEDULE SUB NUMBER

Mary K Gray P ? ? (patient) 1866 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Incapacitated Married 1 63
Ref: RG101/0340C/003/19 Letter Code:

Kath. x

Older daughter Ada F Gray married Albert Wood.

Ada Florence Gray
in the London, England, Church of England Marriages and Banns, 1754-1932
Name: Ada Florence Gray
Gender: Female
Marriage Age: 25
Record Type: Marriage
Birth Date: abt 1891
Marriage Date: 26 Mar 1916
Marriage Place: St Ann, Tottenham, Haringey, England
Father: Harry Gray
Spouse: Albert Edward Wood
Register Type: Parish Register

One closed record with them in 1939:

Ada F Wood
in the 1939 England and Wales Register
Name: Ada F Wood
Gender: Female
Marital Status: Married
Birth Date: 19 Aug 1890
Residence Year: 1939
Address: 2 Orpington Gardens
Residence Place: Edmonton, Middlesex, England
Occupation: Unpaid Domestic Duties
Schedule Number: 81
Sub Schedule Number: 2
Enumeration District: BDCX
Registration district: 132/5
Inferred Spouse: Albert S Wood
Household Members:
Name
Albert S Wood
Ada F Wood

However, assuming they lived in Edmonton from marriage onwards, there are possible births of children from the marriage, so again no help with Kathleen.

I think the birth that Malyon found in Lewisham in 1910 is the most likely and that she is possibly a granddaughter or other relative to Mary Kate Gray. On the image of the 1911 census there was actually no relationship given for Kathleen and it is the enumerator who has written in "daughter".

There is this death that could correspond with the birth:-

England & Wales deaths 1837-2007 Transcription

First name(s) KATHLEEN
Last name GRAY
Gender Female
Birth day -
Birth month -
Birth year 1910
Age 24
Death quarter 2
Death year 1934
District Chelsea
County London
Volume 1A
Page 446
Country England
Record set England & Wales Deaths 1837-2007
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Civil Deaths & Burials
Collections from Great Britain, England

The details from the death certificate may help.

Kath. x

Hi ErikaH,
Thanks for info. How did you find out the mother was in hospital and the other info from 1939?

The mother was in hospital in 1939, and the father was living with daughter Ellen and her family, so no info available there about Kathleen

John H jr was with his wife and daughter only in 1939

The one being sought was born c1910.

It's not the lewisham one Malyon as the mmn on that one is Niven

Births Mar 1900 (>99%)
Gray Kathleen Mile End 1c 451

Kathleen Gray
England and Wales Birth Registration Index, 1837-2008
Name: Kathleen Gray
Event Type: Birth Registration
Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec
Registration Year: 1910
Registration District: Lewisham
County: London
Event Place: Lewisham, London, England
Volume: 1D
Page: 1076
Line Number: 31