Genealogy Chat

Hello

My Grandfather's name was changed shortly before he joined the army in WW1. My Great Grandfather is listed in various census as a head master. I have correspondence that proves my grandfathers original name and also correspondence which appears to indicate my Great Grandfather was involved in some sort of clandestine operations. I have tried off and on for many years and cannot get to the bottom of it. It is quite complicated so I thought if I could post some of the information it might enable someone to help me.

Kind Regards

You can C&P transcribed info to your thread

You can add documents to keepsafe and publish the link

Have you previously asked on here for assistance with this query?

Hi

Yes I have but more in a general way. i have established that my Grandfather did have a different birth name to the one when he joined the army but i have not previously asked for help regarding my Great Grandfathers activities. You have been a great help in the past with other members of my family tree. Any previous suggestions from you and other members have not proved fruitful relating to this. I know certain records are not released for a period of time but 100 years has elapsed since he was involved although he died in 1921 so perhaps I should wait another couple of years.

Is this related to your query re Nigg Chuch, Kincardineshire on another thread? Looks like someone made bit of a mess transcribing the marriage!

https://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/genealogy_chat/thread/1378278

Surname Forename Spouse Surname Spouse Forename Year Ref RD Name

DE ROS NICHOLAS F MELROSE HELEN 1920 266/ 61 Nigg (Kincardine)

DE ROS NICHOLAS F ROSS NICHOLAS FITZGE 1920 266/ 61 Nigg (Kincardine)

DE ROS NICHOLAS F DEROSS NICHOLAS FITZGE 1920 266/ 61 Nigg (Kincardine)


If so, his Father is named as NOK on Army documents 1916/17 as Nicholas F de Ross of same address i.e. 214 ?Sherrard Road, Manor Park, E. Ham, Essex.

Says born Manchester 15.7.1890

What information are you hoping to find?

His father?

Name: Nicolas De Ros
Age: 31
Estimated birth year: abt 1870
Relation to Head: Boarder
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Holland, Delft
Civil Parish: Whitechapel
Ecclesiastical parish: St Jude
County/Island: London
Country: England
Registration district: Whitechapel
Sub-registration district: Goodmans Fields
ED, institution, or vessel: 04
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 305
Folio: 107
Page Number: 21
Household schedule number: 100
Household Members:
Name Age
Harry Walvisch 39
Hannah Walvisch 40
Abraham Walvisch 6
Jenetta Walvisch 4
Abraham Schaap 16
Nicolas De Ros 31


Could be her 'other' grandfather about whom Christine is enquiring

Assuming
a) Melrose was Helen's maiden name,
b) she was born in Aberdeenshire/Kincardineshire
c) she had no middle name

this would be her birth;

MELROSE
HELEN
F
1887
170/ 22
Aboyne

But that's a lot of assumption.

Thre are no Melroses n the 1920 Valuation Roll for Nigg.

In 1925 there's this woman:

MELROSE
CATHERINE
MISS
Tenant Occupier
HOUSE BRIDGE OF DEE NIGG
NIGG (KINCARDINE)
1925
VR010400058-

This might be that 1887 Helen in 1911 with her family:

MELROSE
HELEN
1911
F
23
209/ 5/ 12
Kincardine O'Neil
Aberdeen


MELROSE
HELEN
1911
F
52
209/ 5/ 12
Kincardine O'Neil
Aberdeen


MELROSE
JAMES
1911
M
75
209/ 5/ 12
Kincardine O'Neil
Aberdeen


MELROSE
CHRISTINA
1911
F
19
209/ 5/ 12
Kincardine O'Neil
Aberdeen


MELROSE
GAVIN
1911
M
16
209/ 5/ 12
Kincardine O'Neil
Aberdeen

Hi Everyone

Many thanks for your help.

Helen Melrose, my Grandmother, is the one identified by ArgyllGran. She was in service and travelled quite a bit with various employers. My Grandfather was Nicholas Fitzgerald de Ros however this was not his birth name he was Nicholas Lintott Treble born in Salford 1890. My Great Grandfather was also Nicholas Lintott Treble born in Chobham Surrey and My Great Grandmother was Eleanor Sayer born in Derbyshire.
The issue for me is why did my Grandfather change his name especially to one so obscure. i have proof that my Grandfather was born Nicholas Lintott Treble. The family rumour was that GGF was body guard to the King (Prince Regent) very unlikely as my GF was only 5' 3". My GGF was a head master by profession and the family were living in London when my grandparents met. I have correspondence sent to GGF which is of quite a clandestine nature. He refers to "specials", matters of urgency etc. and some of the correspondence is is french and german. The correspondence is all addressed to my GGF as both the correspondent and addressee and in different hand writing.
On my grandparents wedding certificate my GF's father is referred to as Edward Fitzgerald de Ros but his mother is correctly stated as Eleanor Sayer. My GGF died on the day my Dad was born. i do not know the story but within a few years my grandparents moved to London when at some point my Great Grandmother disowned my Grandfather. Not sure why. my Aunt said it was because my GGF frequented gentlemans clubs and my Grand father would not dish the dirt but no idea how accurate that is.

So my question is where can i go to get this correspondence verified/translated - I did try my sons teacher many year ago but apparently it is old german and the some of the handwriting is quite flowery and if he was some sort of "special" where would that information be located?

Sorry for so much detail but I thought some background might help.

Christine

What an intriguing story Christine! Not sure if anyone will be able to shed any light on his life but here is the 1911 to give us a feel for the family.

1911 Census For England & Wales


102 Little Ilford Lane Manor Park E, East Ham, London & Essex, England

Nicholas Ludott Treble Head Married Male 44 1867 Schoolmaster Surrey Chobham
Eleanor Treble Wife Married Female 54 1857 - Derbyshire Mellor
Annie Linsott Treble Daughter Single Female 21 1890 - Derbyshire Marplebridge
Nicholas Lintott Treble Son Single Male 20 1891 Shop - Assistant Lancs Salford
Dorothy Olga Treble Daughter Single Female 13 1898 Servant Lancs Manchester

British Army Service Records

First name(s) Nicholas Fitzgerald
Last name De Ross
Age 25
Birth year 1891
Birth town Manchester
Birth county Lancashire
Birth country England
Service number S/21191
Regiment Labour Corps
Year 1916
Series WO 363
Series description Wo 363 - First World War Service Records 'Burnt Documents'

Sorry I must leave this now. He is still being described as a shop assistant.

Hello

Yes it is. The address you have is where all of the correspondence was sent. The information I have indicates that my GGF visited many foreign countries as well, which was quite something in the early 1900s.

Possibly need an historian to shed some light on this.

Hi

My Grandfather was originally in the rifle brigade and was injured. He lost an eye and inhaled gas which , after the war ended, meant he could only work out of doors because of breathing difficulties. Following his accident he went into the Labour Corps. When he originally joined the army his records show his next of kin could be contacted at 102 Little Ilford Lane E Ham.

Re translating

https://www.familytreemagazine.com/premium/7-websites-for-deciphering-old-german-script/

http://www.old-german-script.com/en/profile/
https://www.germany-service.com/translations-german-documents.html

Or try Facebook and put something like " German Genealogy translations" in page search?

https://www.facebook.com/sktranslationservices/

Just for ref on FMP there are also service records under the surname given as "Deros", gives details on eye injury march 16th 1917, and loss of eye.

British Army Service Records

First name(s) Nicholas Fitzgerald
Last name Deros
Birth year -
Birth town Salford
Birth county Lancashire
Birth country England
Service number 280338
Regiment Gordon Highlanders
Unit / Battalion 372nd Agricultural Company
Series WO 363
Series description Wo 363 - First World War Service Records 'Burnt Documents'
Archive
The National Archives
Record set British Army Service Records
Category Military, armed forces & conflict
Subcategory First World War
Collections from Great Britain, UK None

"Mr Nicholas Lintott Treble, grocer, Leatherhead, swore that on the evening of the 18th of March prisoner went his shop and asked for half an ounce of tea and half a pound of butter, tendering a half crown in payment. He found it to be a bad one and sent for the police"
05 April 1862 - West Surrey Times - Guildford, Surrey, England

Mar 2nd 1885 "Mr Nicholas L Treble returned to his duties this morning"

National School Admission Registers & Log-Books 1870-1914
Nicholas L
Last name Treble
Year 1885
Entry date 02 Mar 1885
School name St Lawrence Church of England School, Chobham
Town Chobham
County Surrey
Country England
Book type Log
Archive name
Surrey History Centre
Archive reference 6097/1/2
Folio / page no. -
Record set National School Admission Registers & Log-Books 1870-1914

Just for ref change of occupation

1891 England, Wales & Scotland Census
Darwen Street, Pendleton, Salford, Lancashire, England


Nicholas L Treble Head Married Male 25 1866 Certified Teacher Now Manager Boot Shop Surrey, England
Eleonor Treble Wife Married Female 35 1856 - Derbyshire, England
Annie L Treble Daughter - Female 1 1890 - Derbyshire, England
Nicholas L Treble Son - Male 0 1891 - Lancashire, England

and 1894

Prestwich Asylum Admissions 1851-1901

First name(s) NICHOLAS LINTOT
Last name Treble
Age 28
Birth year 1866
Admission year 1894
Admission month Sep
Admission day 19
Discharge date 22/1/1895
Death date -
Patient number 9139
Gender Male
Marital status Married
Number of children 2
Religion Church of England
Place PRESTWICH
Notes
Occ: Shoe shop manager
Archive
GMRRO
Archive reference ADMM/2/6
Record set Prestwich Asylum Admissions 1851-1901
Category Institutions & organisations
Subcategory Hospitals
Collections from England, Great Britain

hello

What a lot of information to digest. I always assumed my Grandfather was in the Rifle Brigade as I have their insignia - if that is the correct term. i have photographs of my GF in uniform along with his brother in law ( my Great Aunt's husband) who is wearing a kilt whilst my GF is not. So assumed he was in the English Army.

There are two other Nicholas Lintott Treble's who are related. NLT 1838 to 1865 married Julia b Ward and had a son - NLT 1864 to 1942.

1891 census has GGF and family living in Salford with 2 children. 1901 shows living in Chester occupation School master. 1911 show them living in London with his occupation as teacher - unemployed. interestingly he adds to the address on the census London Europe.

Very grateful for your assistance.

Clearly, you need to get the letters translated as a piority, and hope that they throw some light on the puzzle.

Are the letters dated during the war?

I'm sure you're thinking he might have been some sort of special agent/spy.
His stated occupation might have been a cover.

On the other hand, the "gentlemen's clubs" might hint at a less honourable reason for secrecy and talk of "specials".

Or (having just watched "Summer of Rockets" ! ), perhaps the gentlemen's clubs were a cover for spy activities.

I don't see that your GF's height means that your GGF couldn't have been a bodyguard. Do you know what your GGF's height was?
Or perhaps he was more of an intelligence officer involved in safeguarding, rather than a hands-on tough-guy-type.