Genealogy Chat

After many months I'm back on the family tree, but I am presently stuck. On the 1841 census which I have worked back to, I have obtained the family names complete with their 2 children, I want to obtain a marriage certificate/records for the parents solely from the census data, is that possible, Info is as below:
John Davies husband born 1781 age 60
Mary Davies wife born 1781 age 60 (Possibly widow, was Mary Thomas nee Evans)
Benjamin Davies born 1821 age 20
Sarah Davies born 1826 age 15.
Parish Brongwyn, County Cardiiganshire Wales, Dist. Newcastle in Emlyn
Arch. HO107, Book 6, Folio 5, Page 4 & Piece No 1377

It is not possible to obtain certs

Civil registration came into force on 1st July 1837.

Prior to that, no certs were issued

The only record you can hope to find is a Parish record.

If you've worked back, you should have info about Benjamin's birthplace from later censuses. What was it, please?

????????

First name(s) Benjamin
Last name Davies
Gender Male
Birth year 1819
Baptism year 1819
Baptism date 16 May 1819
Baptism place TREWEN HAWEN AND GLYNARTHEN INDEPENDENT,BRONGWYN TROEDYRAUR AND PENBRYN,CARDIGAN,WALES
Father's first name(s) John
Father's last name Davies
Mother's first name(s) Mary
Place Brongwyn Troedyraur and Penbryn

Non-conformist

????

Record Transcription:
1851 England, Wales & Scotland Census

Groesfer, Brongwyn, Newcastle in Emlyn, Cardiganshire, Wales

Household Members
Members that resided in the household at the time of the census.
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
John Davies Head Married Male 71 1780 Cabber Brongwyn, Cardiganshire, Wales
Mary Davies Wife Married Female 70 1781 - Brongwyn, Cardiganshire, Wales
Eleanor Davies Daughter Unmarried Female 29 1822 - Brongwyn, Cardiganshire, Wales
John Davies Grand Son - Male 0 1851 - Brongwyn, Cardiganshire, Wales
Charles Jones Lodger Unmarried Male 71 1780 Pauper Monmouthshire, Wales

Record Transcription:
1841 England, Wales & Scotland Census

Croesfer, Brongwyn, Newcastle in Emlyn, Cardiganshire, Wales

Household Members
Members that resided in the household at the time of the census.
First name(s) Last name Sex Age Birth year Birth place
John Davies Male 60 1781 Cardiganshire, Wales
Mary Davies Female 60 1781 Cardiganshire, Wales
Benjamin Davies Male 20 1821 Cardiganshire, Wales
Sarah Davies Female 15 1826 Cardiganshire, Wales
Charles Jones Male 60 1781 -

john is a cobler

Neither FMP nor Ancestry have a record of a marriage which would seem to fit

You may need to visit - or contact - the appropriate County Records Office

Having posted the above the first marriage date of 1842 must obviously be wrong

If Mary Evans married Benjamin Thomas and had two children AFTER 1842, the couple in 1841 and 1851 have NO connection whatsoever.

Can you tell us, please, exactly WHO you are connected to and how you got back to that person, with info from BMD and census records to support.

There is no record on freebmd of the marriage you say took place in 1842.

Please provide full details

Also full details of the 1850 marriage, including the names of both fathers

Benjamin Davies is my Great Grandfather son of John & Mary Davies, they also had a daughter called Sarah.
Benjamin was married twice 1st to Jane Thomas (widow)nee Evans 12/9/1850
second marriage was to Elizabeth Jones 23/12/1858. I have both marriage certificates which show identical signatures for Benjamin, same fathers name John and both shoemakers. The first marriage certificate also ties up with the family Davies living at Croesfer Llandygwdd on the 1841 census.The second marriage produced a son called Owen Emlyn Davies my Grandfather born 14/2/1865. Ties up with 1861 and 71 census. He married Catherine Annie Evans 2/9/1902 and produced a son Leonard William Owen Davies my father who married Marjorie Whitley-Cooze my mother. I am Duncan Emlyn Davies Married to June Carol Davies. So as previously stated stuck at John and Mary Davies, forget 1842 that was a red herring.

Right - so none of the info about marriages in your post at 09.28 is relevant to your actual request - am I correct?

If I am, may I suggest that you delete it, to avoid further confusion.

John Davies's marriage to Mary, which I'm guessing is what you actually wish to find would presumably have been before 1820 - and you have no idea of Mary's maiden name,

Any thoughts on the possible baptism I posted ?

So.............this is the first marriage of the wife of Benjamin Davies. Just for info and to clarify things.....................but it has no bearing whatsoever on the actual request contained in this post.

First name(s) Jane
Last name Evans
Age Full
Marriage date 14 Apr 1842
Marriage place Llandygwydd
Father's first name(s) David
Father's last name Evans
Spouse's first name(s) Benjamin
Spouse's last name Thomas
Spouse's age Full
Spouse's father's last name Thomas
Spouse's father's first name(s) Evan
County Cardiganshire
Country Wales
Event Marriage

There is no obvious marriage for John Davies to Mary on FMP, so the County Records Office will probably be the only place for you to get the info

Ancestry does not hold such records

As the offspring who were at home in 1841 were born when John & Mary were aged 40+, one would imagine there were earlier births - or that their marriage was a second for at least one of them.

June - Re "I have both marriage certificates which show identical signatures for Benjamin".

One needs to be cautious here. Pre-1898, there were 3 sorts of marrs.
If the church was authorized to hold an official marr register (so this only applied to jews, quakers, and the established church - C of W here), then the couple plus witnesses signed the official rego, and a copy of the entry was sent to the local riegistrar (in Newcastle in Emlyn) who maintained a copy of each church's rego. At the end of each quarter, the local registrar had a copy made of all that quarter's BMDs in his district made, and sent to the GRO in now Southport.
Alternatively, if the couple got married in a rego office, then the couple, plus witnesses, would sign the registrar's rego.
Finally, if the couple got marr in a non-conformist church that was not authorized to keep an official marr rego, then an (asst) registrar would need to attend, along with an official marr rego for the couple, plus witnesses, plus the attending registrar, to sign to complete the ceremony.
At the end of each quarter, copies of both sorts of the registrar's marr regos were made and included in the copies sent to the GRO.

In 1898, the law was changed to allow non-conformists to become authorized to hold official marr regos.
Approval took some time - typically, the congregation hadto decide to apply, their national body had to decide this was OK, then, locally, the church had to provide for the security of the rego.
Anyways, after abt 1903, every non-conformist church that wanted to had their own official marr rego - the main exceptions were newly opened church's, plus the RCs (who chose not to apply until 1980-ish).
These non-conformist marrs were reported to the GRO in the same way as the conformist records.

When a church's official marr rego was full (typically 500 entries spread over 250 pages), the registrar's copy would be checked against it, after which, it would be deposited in some archive -usually, the county records office.

There are 2 places on can purchase an official b or d.cert, namely the GRO (now in Southport), and the local registary office that now holds the register that was actually signed by the informant.
One can by an m.cert from these two locations, and also from the church of marriage, if that entry is in the church's possession (effectively their surrent rego).

So if one buys a cert from the GRO, since they only had copies of the main series, it will not contain an original signature - but I must addmit the signature on my b.cert most definitely looks like my mum's typing.
(I'm ignoring the minor series held by the GRO, like consular births, deaths on oil rugs, etc..)
The GRO has the technology in place to print an image of their register entry onto the official certificate form. Most local offices lack this capability, so the usually have a copyist will out the cert.
Official m.certs from the church are usually copied by the vicar, although I have heard of the vicar getting the couple and the witnesses to sign a blank form as well as the register, and then filling the rest of it out and mailing it to them.

So usually, one doesn't see original signatures, but there are exceptions - most importantly, when the local archive makes images of the deposited regos available.
E.g., if one has an FMP sub, an image for this 1902 marr is available:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KC2Y-5FY
Also important for me, although maybe not for you, is that, in Scotland, the central GROS holds the original signed regos, and the local offices have the copies, so the b and d images available thru SP contain images of the informant's signature.

mgnv.
Thanks for your info, I too have both certificates and with other info am satisfied Benjamin is the same husband for both marriages.

ErikaH
Thanks for your latest info, as suggested I have deleted 09.28. With regard to 1st marriage of Jane Evans to Benjamin Thomas I agree with all that information. With regard to the 1841 census true there is quite a an age gap, its a shame cannot access the 1831 census which could have given another clue.
Your info regarding Benjamin's birth record is interesting although slight floor is that it states born 1819 where as the future censuses put him more at 1820/21 Could be interesting checking that same birth register for his sister Sarah born 1826. I suppose John Davies & Mary (possibly Thomas) could have got married in a Baptist church associated to where Benjamin was baptised.

You must remember that birth years ESTIMATED on census returns are based on the age of the person on the day that the census was taken. I’m sure you know, also, that in 1841, ages of over-15’s were rounded down to the nearest ‘5’

The person giving the info was asked the ages of people in the house - not years of birth.
So - take into account the date of the each census - and also the fact that people often didn’t actually know how old they were. They weren’t fixated on age and birthdays in the way that people are nowadays.

I did not know about the 5 year rule so the info. you sent regarding the Baptism of Benjamin Davies is quite plausible. How do you get onto those records?

The baptism was found on FMP to which I subscribe

Hi Erika. thanks for the info, I joined today and the site certainly is very interesting.
Going back to your info. on Benjamin Davies, it stated he was baptised 16/5/1819.
I have got to another Benjamin with same named parents on the Wales, Select Births and Baptisms 1541-1907 site. What is interesting is that this Benjamin was born 19/3/1819 but not baptised till 28/2/1821 which is a considerable gap. Is it feasible in those days for possibly having a baby baptised twice? I am still progressing with Benjamin's parents John Davies & Jane Thomas and thought I had them getting married 17/5/1849 but neither had been married before so Benjamin & Sarah do not fit into the puzzle so it was a no show..