Genealogy Chat

Regarding Florence Petherick in Aldershot, I quite agree with the reasoning, I'm sure she had her hands more than full.
It has to be her, the childrens' names and ages match, but her age in that record is wrong.
I'll try again to find that military record, it was on FMP or Ancestry I'm pretty sure.

On the Hind / Phillipps duality, I agree that him / them changing names is a possible explanation - but why? and why would Poppy use both?
I've no evidence for a Hind-Petherick marriage, that was the point of the search! That argues, too, for one person with two names. Which was what started me looking at the Hind family and led me to find the Tylers.

My interpretation of the sister in law / brother in law descriptions was that Sophia was the sister of William's wife. James Tyler is unlikely to be William's brother (could be half brother perhaps), and if Sophia was William's sister then the description would be sister rather than sister in law.

You pointing out the date discrepancy for James & Sophia's marriage made me go back and re-examine why I settled on the 1886 marriage. I fear it may have been my reaction to finding "Hind" and I thought "yes!". I'm now wondering whether one of the other James Tyler - Sophia marriages might be a better choice, eg 1858.

I'll look for that military record. It's irritating: as I decided it meant I was barking up the wrong tree, I dismissed it ...

Moving on to Sophia and James Tyler -

you noted that Sophia is "sister-in-law" to William Phillips senior in 1891.
But James Tyler is "brother-in-law", which could equally mean that Sophia was William's sister. Or half-sister or similar.



Although they only married in 1886, here are Sophia and James in 1881:

Sophia Tyler
in the 1881 England Census
Name: Sophia Tyler
Age: 43
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1838
Relationship to Head: Wife
Spouse: James Tyler
Gender: Female
Where born: Shoreditch, Middlesex, England
Civil Parish: St John Hackney
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street Address: 177 Wick Road
Marital status: Married
Education:
Employment status:
View image
Registration District: Hackney
Sub registration district: South Hackney
ED, institution, or vessel: 12
Neighbors:
Piece: 316
Folio: 16
Page Number: 25
Household Members:
Name Age
James Tyler 37 - boot maker
Sophia Tyler 43


and 1871:

Sophia Tyler
in the 1871 England Census
Name: Sophia Tyler
Age: 29
Estimated Birth Year: 1842
Relation: Wife
Gender: Female
Where born: Bermondsey Middlesex England
Civil Parish: Shoreditch
Ecclesiastical parish: St John The Baptist Hoxton
County/Island: London
Country: England
Registration District: Shoreditch
Sub-registration District: Hoxton Old Town
ED, institution, or vessel: 6
Household Schedule Number: 432
Piece: 454
Folio: 86
Page Number: 69
Household Members:
Name Age
James Tyler 27 - shoemaker
Sophia Tyler 29


You'll need their marriage cert to find out her father's name.

As it's not clear from the censuses exactly where or when she was born, I can't see her definitively before 1871.

You mentioned a military record.

The only one I can see which, on the face of it, looks as if it could he his, is this one:

UK, Royal Hospital Chelsea Pensioner Soldier Service Records, 1760-1920
Name: William Henry Phillips
Enlistment Age: 19
Birth Date: abt 1865
Birth Place: Shoreditch, Middlesex
Enlistment Year: 1884
Regiment: 19 Hussars
Regimental Number: 2546
Attestation Paper: Yes

However, a Fold3 sub is needed to see the details.



William Henry Phillips
in the 1891 England Census
Name: William Henry Phillips
Gender: Male
Age: 25
Relationship: Soldier
Birth Year: 1866
Birth Place: Shoreditch, Middlesex, England
Civil Parish: Aldershot
Ecclesiastical parish: St Michael
Residence Place: Aldershot, Aldershot, Hampshire, England
Registration District: Farnham
Sub registration district: Frimley
ED, Institution or Vessel: Cavalry Barracks [ 19th Hussars ]
Neighbors:
Piece: 566
Folio: 108


Unless the Fold3 papers prove it one way or the other, there's no reason to suppose this isn't him .

I don't see him anywhere else in 1891.


Poppy's with her Petherick grandparents in 1891, as you know.

Poppy's mother is also in Aldershot in 1891;

Florence Phillips
in the 1891 England Census
Name: Florence Phillips
Gender: Female
Age: 22
Relationship: Head
Birth Year: 1869
Child: William T Phillips
Violet Phillips
Mable Phillips
Birth Place: St James, London, England
Civil Parish: Aldershot
Ecclesiastical parish: Holy Trinity
Residence Place: Aldershot, Aldershot, Hampshire, England
Registration District: Farnham
Sub registration district: Frimley
ED, Institution or Vessel: 3
Neighbors:
Piece: 563
Folio: 83
Household Members:
Name Age
Florence Phillips 22
William T Phillips 1
Violet Phillips 5/12
Mable Phillips 5/12


No doubt Florence had enough to deal with, coping with three babies, including presumably sickly twins, while her husband was in the army - so Poppy was sent to her grandparents for a while.

And there again is the Hind/Phillips strangeness - Poppy is Hind in 1891, while the rest of the family are Phillips.

No, only the transcription, ArgyllGran, a reason to order the certificate perhaps?
Only someone with a crossword mind would spot that! Brilliant!

Keith -
have you been able to see an actual image of Poppy's marriage record?

Is it possible that her father's occupation is a mistranscription of "dock porter"?

I know yu thnk there may have been a Hind/Petherick marriage -
but I'm still inclined to think that William Henry sometimes called himself Hind.
But - I have no dea why he would do so!

Hello again ArgyllGran, and thank you for your continued interest.

I'd see the Henrietta family but I had discounted it. I found (but can no longer find) a military record for their son William, the dates of which ruled out him being the William Phillipps in question.

I'd also examined the double "l" link. My conclusion was that it was unreliable as an indicator as it was variably spelled for the same person.

I think, as safc says, it's probably time to order some certificates:
Poppy's birth certificate should eliminate any confusion over her mother, so I'll order that.

Her marriage certificate probably wouldn't add much beyond this transcription:

Essex Marriages And Banns 1537-1935

First name(s) Florence Poppy Mary Annie Phillipps
Last name Hind
Residence 148 Essex Rd Leyton
Marriage year 1918
Marriage date 17 Apr 1918
Place Leyton, St Paul
County Essex
Spouse's first name(s) Augustine
Spouse's last name Cannell
Spouse's marital status B
Spouse's residence On Active Service
Father's first name(s) William Henry
Father's last name Hind
Father's occupation Cork Factor <<<
Spouse's father's first name(s) Anthony
Spouse's father's last name Cannell
Country England
Event type Marriages
Archive
Essex Record Office
Archive reference WF/L83 7 RM 2
Page number 35
Record set Essex Marriages And Banns 1537-1935
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Parish Marriages
Collections from England, Great Britain
© Ada Brady 2019

I thought the father's occupation was interesting ...

I'd love to order william Henry Hind's marriage to Petherick - if only I could find a reference to it!

This is getting creepy:
William Henry Hind's occupation in 1911 - Dock Warehouse Foreman
William Henry Phillipps' occupation in 1901 - Delivery Foreman Dock Warehouse

Again, many thanks safc and ArgyllGran

Possible death of William seniior - can't tell his YOB from censuses:

Deaths Sep 1891 (>99%)
PHILLIPPS William Henry 52 Hackney 1b 296


Also note that Phillipps is spelled with the double p at the end in William's marriage to Florence Petherick, and in 1901 census, as well as in 1881, and at Alice's marriage and Frank's birth.

Alice's marriage:

Alice Phillipps
in the Westminster, London, England, Church of England Marriages and Banns, 1754-1935
Name: Alice Phillipps
Gender: Female
Age: 28
Birth Date: abt 1870
Marriage Date: 10 Sep 1898
Marriage Place: St Martin-In-The-Fields, London, Westminster, England
Parish as it Appears: St Martin in the Fields
Father: William Henry Phillipps - deceased, porter
Spouse: William Henry Robertson

Address of both: 6 York Buildings.
Witnesses: C T Howard, and Sarah Jane Robertson


Alice in 1939:

Alice Robertson
in the 1939 England and Wales Register
Name: Alice Robertson
Gender: Female
Marital status: Widowed
Birth Date: 8 Jun 1869 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Residence Year: 1939
Address: 31
Residence Place: Hackney, London, England
Occupation: Theatre Cleaner
Line Number: 42
Schedule Number: 53
Sub Schedule Number: 1
Enumeration District: AITC
Borough: Hackney
Registration District: 12 - 3.
Household Members:
Name
Alice Robertson
Frank J Robertson - 2 March 1912


Births Jun 1912 (>99%)
Robertson Frank J Phillipps Hackney 1b 766

William Henry Hind/Phillips was born c1864 in Shoreditch, per both 1901 and 1911 censuses.


I had suggested an 1871 census for a possible William Hind with uncle John Joseph Hind. (But I don't think that's the right one.)

At the risk of sending us off on another false trail, there's also this possibility :

William Phillips
in the 1871 England Census
Name: William Phillips
Age: 7
Estimated Birth Year: 1864
Relation: Son
Gender: Male
Where born: Shoreditch Middlesex England
Civil Parish: St Leonard Shoreditch
Ecclesiastical parish: St John Hoxton
County/Island: London
Country: England
Registration District: Shoreditch
Sub-registration District: Hoxton New Town
ED, institution, or vessel: 24
Household Schedule Number: 95
Piece: 450
Folio: 47
Page Number: 15
Household Members:
Name Age
William Phillips 40 - Brompton, private enquiry agent (!)
Henrietta Phillips 37 - City of London
William Phillips 7 - Shoreditch
Alice Phillips 19 months - Shoreditch

Address: 12 Bevendon Street.

There's a Francis Hinde living next door at No 11, but I expect that's a coincidence.

The daughter Alice is 19 months old in April 1871, therefore born approx July 1869.
There's no Alice Phillips born in Shoreditch at that time.

But there is this birth - possibly not hers:

HIND, ALICE mms SMITH
GRO Reference: 1869 S Quarter in SHOREDITCH Volume 01C Page 100

However, no birth of a William with mms Smith c1864 - at least not in Shoreditch..

Can't see a marriage of Wiliam and Henrietta.


William Hy. Phillipps
in the 1881 England Census
Name: William Hy. Phillipps
Age: 17
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1864
Relationship to Head: Son
Father: William Hy. Phillipps
Mother: Henrietta Phillipps
Gender: Male
Where born: Shoreditch
Civil Parish: Hackney
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street Address: 33 Sedgwick St
Education:
Employment status:
View image
Occupation: Clerk Shipping <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Registration District: Hackney
Sub registration district: West Hackney
ED, institution, or vessel: 41
Neighbors:
Piece: 309
Folio: 65
Page Number: 18
Household Members:
Name Age
William Hy. Phillipps 44 - Warwickshire, railway shipping clerk
Henrietta Phillipps 42 - Middlesex
William Hy. Phillipps 17
Alice Phillipps 11 - Shoreditch
Frederick C. Phillipps 10 - nephew, Islington

Re occupation "shipping clerk" - Poppy's father was a delivery foreman in a dock warehouse in 1901, and a "shipper" at his marriage to Florence.

William senior's stated birthplace of Warwick(shire) may be a mistake, as the person on the line above was born in Warwick, and there are just ditto signs on William's line.

Possible death of Henrietta (though Ancestry suggests this may be a different Henrietta, married to a George Edward Phhillips):

Henrietta Phillips
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1837-1915
Name: Henrietta Phillips
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1840
Registration Year: 1896
Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec
Age at Death: 56
Registration District: Hackney
Inferred County: London
Volume: 1b
Page: 327

hi
KeithG


might be time to buy some certs ?

marriage and florences birth cert ?

The Shoreditch William Henry's birth already posted, along with possible 1871 for him, with uncle John Joseph Hind, born Worksop, Notts.

However, John Joseph was born c1845, and Edward was born c1826 , per census - seems too big a gap for them to be brothers.


ADDED:

also John J was born in Worksop, and Edward apparently in:London

Edward Hind
in the 1851 England Census
Name: Edward Hind
Age: 24
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1827
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Sophia Hind
Gender: Male
Where born: St Georges East, Middlesex, England
Civil Parish: Shoreditch
Ecclesiastical parish: Haggerstone West
Phillimore Ecclesiastical Parish Maps:
View related Ecclesiastical Parish
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England
Street Address:
Occupation:
Condition as to marriage:
Disability:
View image
Registration District: Shoreditch
Sub-registration District: Haggerstone West
ED, institution, or vessel: 27
Neighbors:
Household Schedule Number: 108
Piece: 1537
Folio: 546
Page Number: 22
Household Members:
Name Age
Edward Hind 24
Sophia Hind 23



I suppose it's possible "nephew" didn't really mean nephew - clutching at straws!

It's bed time here, I'm afraid, so I'll pick this up again tomorrow.

This discussion has been really helpful, it's opened up some new possibilities and filled in some gaps, but still hasn't come up with an explanation of the Hind / Phillipps duality.

Thank you!

Deaths of the twins Mabel and Violet (Poppy's sisters):

HIND, VIOLET 0
GRO Reference: 1891 S Quarter in HACKNEY Volume 01B Page 316

HIND, MABEL 0
GRO Reference: 1891 S Quarter in HACKNEY Volume 01B Page 304

Based on the second marriage to Annie Baragwanath, William Hind's DoB is about 1864, in which case:

HIND, WILLIAM HENRY RAVEN
GRO Reference: 1864 M Quarter in SHOREDITCH Volume 01C Page 161

That marriage:

Edward Hind
Sophia Raven

is interesting. There would be a strong probability that a daughter, assuming they had one, would also be named Sophia. Remember the Sophia Tyler who was William Phillipps' sister in law?

From the C1901 ArgyllGran found, the two children - Poppy and William - were called Phillipps. Yet they were both registered as Hind.

Florence & William were married 1886, the two children were born after that.

So, given their registration as Hind, it seems probable (?) that they were born to William Hind and another Petherick daughter. Then, for some reason, they were adopted by Florence & William.

Does that stand up to examination?

There is one Petherick daughter I have yet to identify:

PETHERICK, - ROGERS
GRO Reference: 1869 S Quarter in HACKNEY Volume 01B Page 491

and another that I have yet to follow up:

Eunice, who appears in the C1881 but I have not yet found her GRO record.

I think we can rule out Eunice, but the unnamed Petherick might just be a candidate?

Just in case the Shoreditch birth for William is correct -

HIND, LYDIA mms RAVEN
GRO Reference: 1861 S Quarter in SHOREDITCH Volume 01C Page 157


Lydia Hind
in the 1871 England Census
Name: Lydia Hind
Age: 10
Estimated Birth Year: 1861
Relation: Daughter
Gender: Female
Where born: Horton
Civil Parish: Bethnal Green
Ecclesiastical parish: St Paul
County/Island: London
Country: England
Registration District: Bethnal Green
Sub-registration District: Bethnal Church
ED, institution, or vessel: 9
Household Schedule Number: 152
Piece: 493
Folio: 17
Page Number: 28
Household Members:
Name Age
Edward Hind 45 - shoemaker. [Birthplace unreadable.]
Lydia Hind 10



Edward Hind
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Marriage Index, 1837-1915
Name: Edward Hind
Registration Year: 1847
Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec
Registration District: Shoreditch
Inferred County: London
Volume: 2
Page: 352
Records on Page:
Name
Edward Hind
Sophia Raven

Name: Mother's Maiden Surname:
HIND, FLORENCE POPPY MARY ANNIE PETHERICK
GRO Reference: 1888 M Quarter in HACKNEY Volume 01B Page 584
HIND, MABEL PETHERICK
GRO Reference: 1890 D Quarter in HACKNEY Volume 01B Page 495
HIND, VIOLET PETHERICK
GRO Reference: 1890 D Quarter in HACKNEY Volume 01B Page 495

I'd found that marriage to Annie and it's possible that it's a second marriage but I'd discounted it because the father's name didn't match. I also failed to find a "matching" death for his first wife - assuming that was Florence!

It's almost as if William Henry Phillipps was also known as William Henry Hind!

?? Because birthplace given as shoreditch in 1911 census -

HIND, WILLIAM HENRY mms RAVEN
GRO Reference: 1864 M Quarter in SHOREDITCH Volume 01C Page 161


???

William Hind
in the 1871 England Census
Name: William Hind
Age: 8
Estimated Birth Year: 1863
Relation: Nephew
Gender: Male
Where born: London England
Civil Parish: Worksop
Ecclesiastical parish: St John
Town: Worksop
County/Island: Nottinghamshire
Country: England
Registration District: Worksop
Sub-registration District: Worksop
ED, institution, or vessel: 9
Household Schedule Number: 1
Piece: 3459
Folio: 63
Page Number: 1
Household Members:
Name Age
John Joseph Hind 26
Mary Hind 25
Sarah E Hind 6/12 - daughter
William Hind 8 - nephew