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Lindsey
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10 May 2021 17:59 |
I’ll try to put this as simply as I can. I have a link to a Frederick Collins brn 11/4/1872 birth certificate has Fred Collins on it. His parents were Henry Collins and Mary Calver. They had several children including an Isaac Collins this is where my query lies. I have a birth certificate for Isaac Collins brn 13/05/1870 His parents seem to have had Isaac baptised on 03/06/1870 but they also had another baptism for an Isaac Freddy Collins brn in 1872 baptised privately 01/05/1874 there is no birth certificate for Isaac Freddy Collins just a birth certificate for the above Frederick Collins brn in 1872. I have checked there is only one birth registered for an Isaac Collins and no deaths. I cannot find the baptism for Fred Collins. I’m trying to fathom why they called 2 sons Isaac, no one in the family has ever done this before. Just looking for reasons as to why this might be Any suggestions appreciated. P.s I have seen all of the census’s for the family
Many thanks in advance
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Shirley~I,m getting the hang of it
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10 May 2021 18:13 |
If a child died it was often a norm to name the next child of the same sex with the same norm
Or are you saying only one Issac on the next census
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Shirley~I,m getting the hang of it
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10 May 2021 18:23 |
Looking at the baptisms they are text only
Am leaning to that Isaac Freddy being Fred
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ArgyllGran
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10 May 2021 18:31 |
Both brothers alive in 1881:
Frederick Collings in the 1881 England Census Name: Frederick Collings [Frederick Collins] Age: 8 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1873 Relationship to Head: Son Father: Henry Collings Gender: Male Where born: Monk Soham, Suffolk, England Civil Parish: Monk Soham County/Island: Suffolk Country: England Education: Employment status: View image Occupation: Scholar Registration District: Hoxne ED, institution, or vessel: 12 Neighbors: Piece: 1859 Folio: 36 Page Number: 13 Household Members: Name Age Henry Collings 40 Arthur Collings 16 George Collings 14 Isaac Collings 10 Frederick Collings 8 William Collings 6
It's not unknown for families to have two children with the same name - though it must have been confusing.
But in this case, either it's a mistake on the baptism record - have you seen the original? Or else Isaac is a family name (though I don't see it on a quick look back at the parents' families) and the parents decided to add it at baptism, although the child's birth was registered as Frederick and he was clearly known as Frederick.
For our reference:
COLLINS, FRED CALVER GRO Reference: 1872 J Quarter in HOXNE Volume 04A Page 594
COLLINS, ISAAC CALVER GRO Reference: 1870 J Quarter in HOXNE Volume 04A Page 586
Isaac Freddy Collins in the England, Select Births and Christenings, 1538-1975 Name: Isaac Freddy Collins Gender: Male Baptism Date: 1 May 1874 Baptism Place: Monk Soham,Suffolk,England Father: Henry Collins Mother: Mary
Isaac Collins in the England, Select Births and Christenings, 1538-1975 Name: Isaac Collins Gender: Male Baptism Date: 3 Jun 1870 Baptism Place: Monk Soham,Suffolk,England Father: Henry Collins Mother: Mary
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malyon
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10 May 2021 18:31 |
Births Jun 1870 (>99%) Collins Isaac Hoxne 4a 586
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Shirley~I,m getting the hang of it
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10 May 2021 18:33 |
The baptism is text only Malyon
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ArgyllGran
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10 May 2021 18:39 |
Another thread started about Isaac from 1901 onwards:
https://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/genealogy_chat/thread/1393126
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greyghost
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10 May 2021 18:50 |
From the other thread, asking a different question but the same man
I have an Isaac Collins brn 13/05/1870 in monk Soham. I have him on all the census’s up to 1901 past this I have nothing, he was in the army and then discharged. I cannot find out what happened to him I certainly can’t find a death record, I have tried the 1911 and 1939 but nothing. They only thing I’ve found is Isaac on the 1901 census in Canterbury kent it says he is married there is an Emily with him. I’ve searched for a marriage but there is non. There were the banns for a marriage between Isaac Collins and a Emily Richards in 1901 but there is no date for the marriage on the record .
I do have membership for FMP at the moment if anyone has any pointers
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The 1901 census you refer to on the other thread
1901 England, Wales & Scotland Census 7, Staplegate Place, Staplegate, Blean, Kent, England
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place Isaac Collins Lodger Married Male 29 1872 Horse Breaker Suffolk, England Emily Collins Lodger Married Female 23 1878 - Canterbury, Kent, England
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ArgyllGran
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10 May 2021 19:16 |
Isaac Collins in the 1901 England Census Name: Isaac Collins Age: 29 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1872 Relation to Head: Lodger Gender: Male Birth Place: Monk Soham, Suffolk, England Civil Parish: Staplegate Ecclesiastical parish: St Alphage County/Island: Kent Country: England Street Address: Registration District: Blean Sub-registration District: Sturry ED, institution, or vessel: 6 Neighbors: Piece: 796 Folio: 13 Page Number: 18 Household Schedule Number: 83 Household Members: Name Age Harry Collins 32 - Monk Soham Mary Ann Collins 33 Arthur Henry 4 Isaac Collins 29 Emily Collins 23
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Lindsey
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10 May 2021 19:37 |
Sorry I have done a 2nd post about Isaac after finding him on the 1901 I found a marriage bann record for an Isaac Collins and a Emily Richards in Canterbury. However there is no marriage date on it or a record of a marriage taking place at any time ??
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ArgyllGran
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10 May 2021 21:24 |
I don't see the banns you mention - what site did you find that on?
If that marriage didn't take place, I wonder if this is relevant??
Marriages Sep 1901 (>99%) Buxton Arthur Canterbury 2a 1807 RICHARDS Emily Canterbury 2a 1807
Not that it helps at all with Isaac.
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Lindsey
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10 May 2021 21:40 |
I found them on FMP The banns date was the 7th April1901 at St Alphage, Canterbury
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greyghost
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10 May 2021 22:14 |
Kent Marriages And Banns Canterbury, St Alphege, Kent, England
First name(s) Isaac Last name Collins Banns year 1901 Banns date 07 Apr 1901 Marriage year 1901 Marriage date - Place Canterbury, St Alphege Spouse's first name(s) Emily Spouse's last name Richards Groom's parish Borough Of Staplegate Bride's parish Borough Of Staplegate County Kent Country England Archive Canterbury Cathedral Archives Archive reference U3/8 Register year range 1898-1933 Page 16 Record set Kent Marriages And Banns Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records Subcategory Parish Marriages Collections from England, Great Britain © Findmypast
From image. Banns read 7/14/21 April Bachelor and spinster
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ArgyllGran
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10 May 2021 22:18 |
It certainly appears that they didn't actually marry.
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Lindsey
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10 May 2021 22:21 |
Yes that’s what I thought, I just cannot find him past this date
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greyghost
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10 May 2021 22:23 |
Kent Marriages And Banns Canterbury, St Alphege, Kent, England
First name(s) Arthur Last name Buxton Birth year 1868 Marriage year 1901 Marriage date 30 Sep 1901 Place Canterbury, St Alphege Spouse's first name(s) Emily Spouse's last name Richards Groom's age 33 Groom's father's first name(s) Arthur Groom's father's last name Buxton Bride's age 22 Bride's father's first name(s) Thomas Bride's father's last name Richards County Kent Country England Register year range 1896-1914 Archive Canterbury Cathedral Archives Archive reference U3/8 Page 42 Record set Kent Marriages And Banns Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records Subcategory Parish Marriages Collections from England, Great Britain
From image - Arthur a Bachelor aged 33 a Private in the 21st Lancers s/o Arthur a Labourer Emily a spinster aged 22 d/o Thomas Richards a Labourer. Both of 7 Staplegate Place. *************** Witnesses - (? Henry) Arthur Collins and Mary Ann Collins <<<<<<<<<<<<<<
From image of the Banns entry - Banns read 15/22/29 Sept Bachelor and spinster
***********1901 address of the Collins <<<<<<<< Names of the people with whom Isaac and Emily Collins were living on the 1901 census. So was Emily "Collins" living with Isaac as his wife and was in actual fact Emily Richards??
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Lindsey
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10 May 2021 22:30 |
Yes she was still Emily Richards on the census as there are only the banns for the marriage between Isaac Collins and Emily Richards that year there was no actual marriage that took place
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greyghost
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10 May 2021 22:50 |
Yes I can see only Banns for Isaac and Emily and no marriage
BUT am wondering if the Emily Collins on that 1901 census (not on census as Emily Richards) was living with Isaac as his wife and therefore using his surname but was actually Emily Richards .
The address of 7 Staplegate on census is that given for the Marriage of Emily Richards and Arthur Buxton
FMP transcribes as 2 separate households whereas Ancestry has them on the same transcript (posted by AG earlier)
1901 England, Wales & Scotland Census 7, Staplegate Place, Staplegate, Blean, Kent, England
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place Harry Collins Head Married Male 32 1869 General Farm Labourer Monk Soham, Suffolk, England Mary Ann Collins Wife Married Female 33 1868 Farm Field Worker Mile End, Middlesex, England Arthur Henry Collins Son Single Male 4 1897 - Canterbury, Kent, England
1901 England, Wales & Scotland Census 7, Staplegate Place, Staplegate, Blean, Kent, England
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place Isaac Collins Lodger Married Male 29 1872 Horse Breaker Suffolk, England Emily Collins Lodger Married Female 23 1878 - Canterbury, Kent, England
Not that it helps with Isaac
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Lindsey
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10 May 2021 23:22 |
Yes that’s what I thought I’ve seen the census and it clearly seems to be Emily is still Richards and is just on the census as Collins for whatever reason, but they definitely didn’t get married.
I just cannot find Isaac Collins anywhere else after this no marriage or even a death record. Definitely not on any census after this
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ArgyllGran
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11 May 2021 09:22 |
Emily is listed as Collins on the census because they were living together as man and wife, but for respectability they had to pretend to be married.
Clearly Isaac had intended to marry her, but then they broke up and she married Arthur Buxton instead. Poor Isaac!
??? Just a thought -
Deaths Jun 1901 (>99%) Unknown Male 25 Blean 2a 512
Deaths Mar 1902 (>99%) Unknown Male 25-30 Blean 2a 742
Deaths Jun 1904 (>99%) Unknown Male - Blean 2a 491
Deaths Sep 1910 (>99%) Unknown Male ? Blean 2a 461
Or one of the many "Unknown Male" deaths in other places.
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