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BrianW
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26 May 2021 16:27 |
Thanks, Gran. Looks like I am going to have to send for a few birth certificates (haven't had to do that for a while).
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ArgyllGran
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26 May 2021 18:31 |
So, the possible birth records of the possble adopted daughters are:
MACEY, ADA - GRO Reference: 1874 D Quarter in HACKNEY Volume 01B Page 470
MACEY, ELIZA ESTHER mmn COLLETT GRO Reference: 1878 J Quarter in HACKNEY Volume 01B Page 481
MACEY, JANE mmn CRAWLEY GRO Reference: 1871 D Quarter in HACKNEY Volume 01B Page 418
BUT we don't know if any of those are actually the births of the "Harris" girls (EDIT: - apart from Jane) .
Still haven't found a possible birth for Elizabeth Harris born c1848-9 in Newington (per 1861 census) or Kingsland (per 1851 ).
I don't see any Macey/Collett (or other spelling) marriage, nor a Macey/Crawley marriage.
Annie Elizabeth (mmn Hamling) is NOT the child with Charles & Jane. She's with her mother in 1881;
Joseph Thomas Harris in the London, England, Church of England Marriages and Banns, 1754-1936 Name: Joseph Thomas Harris [bootmaker] Gender: Male Marriage Age: 27 Record Type: Marriage Birth Date: abt 1852 Marriage Date: 15 Apr 1879 Marriage Place: St John, Bethnal Green, Tower Hamlets, England Father: John Harris [ chapel (something?) ] Spouse: Mary Ann Hamling [ father: Thomas Parr Hamling, carpenter ] Register Type: Parish Register
Mary Ann born 1848 in Kelvedon, Essex, per 1851, 1861, 1871 censuses. Parents : Thomas, and Phillis Goodman.
Mary A. Harris in the 1881 England Census Name: Mary A. Harris Age: 32 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1849 Gender: Female Where born: Essex, England Civil Parish: Hackney County/Island: London Country: England Street Address: 76 Church Rd Marital status: Married Education: Employment status: View image Occupation: Laundress Registration District: Hackney Sub registration district: West Hackney ED, institution, or vessel: 41 Neighbors: Piece: 309 Folio: 80 Page Number: 47 Household Members: Name Age John Kinlen 25 Elizabeth Kinlen 23 Mary A. Harris 32 Annie E. Harris 1 <<<<<<<<<<<<<< Mary Ann Cable 29 Mary Ann Cable 12
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BrianW
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26 May 2021 19:48 |
Newington would be Stoke Newington. Kingsland is an adjacent area or sub-district. My father was born in Stoke Newington. Jane 1871, my gran, is definitely Macey and I have her birth cert. It was issued in 1936 and I imagine she sent for it so as to apply for her State pension.
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ArgyllGran
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27 May 2021 15:06 |
???? Annie / Elizabeth ??
MACEY, ANN ELIZABETH mmn HARRIS GRO Reference: 1880 S Quarter in HACKNEY Volume 01B Page 497
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BrianW
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28 May 2021 17:51 |
That's a new twist (MMN Harris). Looks like I need the certificate.
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BrianW
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3 Jun 2021 18:10 |
Certificate for Ada: Ada Macey born 18/09/1874 @ 4 Middle Street, Mother: Elizabeth Macey, Charwoman, no father given, informant R Watson, Occupier of 4 Middle Street, registered 28/10/1874.
Same Elizabeth as Jane but no longer with Charles (assuming he existed)? Unless, of course, R Watson was a lodger and simply did not know that Elizabeth was married to Charles.
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ArgyllGran
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3 Jun 2021 20:25 |
With the two births, 1871 and 1874, both being at Middle Street, with mother Elizabeth, it does seem that Elizabeth Mally on the 1871 census is Elizabeth Macey, as you suspected.
I still hold to the thought that she is the Harrises' daughter, using the surname of a partner to whom she's not married.
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ArgyllGran
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3 Jun 2021 20:37 |
???
Deaths Jun 1883 (>99%) Macey Elizabeth 34 Hackney 1b 301
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BrianW
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3 Jun 2021 22:58 |
Eliza/Elizabeth Harris Aged 2 on 1851 census, Born Prospect Place, Kingsland Baptised 17/09/1848 at West Hackney parish church as Eliza Harriet Harris, parents Charles & Jane Harris of Upper Prospect Place, Kingsland
She therefore seems to be their natural child, as do Charles (1854) and George (1860). I've looked at records for William c. 1865 but Harris or Macey does not seem to come up as MMN other than:- Name: Mother's Maiden Surname: MACEY, WILLIAM FREDERICK - GRO Reference: 1865 S Quarter in HACKNEY Volume 01B Page 402
The odd thing about what seem to be the Harris natural children is the long gap between births: around six years instead of the usual two (1848, 1854 and 1860)!
If William was the son of Elizabeth as above she would have about 18 when he was born.
The witnesses to Eliza Esther's marriage to Walter Alexander in 1902 were Ada Harris (actually born Macey) and W. Macey.
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ArgyllGran
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4 Jun 2021 12:58 |
The gap between the Harrises' natural children could be because of miscarriages.
Re William Frederick Macey 1865 -
William Frederick Macey in the London, England, Church of England Marriages and Banns, 1754-1936 Name: William Frederick Macey, carman Gender: Male Marriage Age: 27 Record Type: Marriage Birth Date: abt 1865 Marriage Date: 23 Oct 1892 Marriage Place: St John, Hackney, Hackney, England Father: Charles Macey , labourer <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Spouse: Ada Johnson Register Type: Parish Register
William's address is - guess what? - 4 Middle Street.
Witnesses: William Johnson and Lilian Ethel Taylor.
William Frederick is still called Harris in the 1881 census (posted on page 1).
I assume this is him in 1891, now calling himself Macey, with Jane Harris and her son George:
William Macey in the 1891 England Census Name: William Macey Gender: Male Age: 26 Relationship: Boarder Birth Year: 1865 Birth Place: Hackney, London, England Civil Parish: Hackney Ecclesiastical parish: Haggerston All Saints Residence Place: West Hackney, Hackney, London, England Registration District: Hackney Sub registration district: West Hackney ED, Institution or Vessel: 22 Neighbors: Piece: 190 Folio: 9 Household Members: Name Age Jane Harris 69 - married, Hertfordshire George Harris 31 - son, general labourer, Hackney William Macey 26 <<<<<<<<<<<<<< carman Henry Skinner 37 Mary A Toumey 24
However, they're at 23 Acton Street, not 4 Middle Street.
Charles Harris is at 4 Middle Street in 1891, with daughters, and calling himself a widower: (1891 posted on page 1)
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ArgyllGran
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4 Jun 2021 18:34 |
Looking for a Charles Macey of about the right age to be the children's father (assuming not too different from Elizabeth's age) , in Hackney at the right time for at least some of the children's births - there's this possibility:
Charles Macey in the 1861 England Census Name: Charles Macey Age: 17 Estimated Birth Year: 1844 Relation: Son Father's Name: George Macey Mother's Name: Sarah Macey Gender: Male Where born: London, Middlesex, England Civil Parish: Hackney Ecclesiastical parish: West Hackney County/Island: Middlesex Country: England Street Address: 9 Abbott Street <<<<<<<<<<< Occupation: Condition as to marriage: View image Registration District: Hackney Sub-registration District: West Hackney ED, institution, or vessel: 7 Neighbors: Household Schedule Number: 88 Piece: 155 Folio: 35 Page Number: 16 Household Members: Name Age George Macey 59 Sarah Macey 56 Charles Macey 17 - son, wheelwright George Macey 13 - son Elizabeth Macey 28 - daughter-in-law, widow, Whitchurch, Dorset Elizabeth Macey 3 - grand-daughter, Hackney.
I don't see his birth - mmn Windmill. The only Charles Macey born 1844 Hackney has mmn Tinsley.
He's not with the family in 1851:
George Macey in the 1851 England Census Name: George Macey Age: 49 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1802 Relation: Head Spouse's Name: Sarah Macey Gender: Male Where born: Kingsland, Middlesex, England Civil Parish: Hackney Ecclesiastical parish: West Hackney Phillimore Ecclesiastical Parish Maps: View related Ecclesiastical Parish County/Island: Middlesex Country: England Street Address: Occupation: Condition as to marriage: Disability: View image Registration District: Hackney Sub-registration District: West Hackney ED, institution, or vessel: 08 Neighbors: Household Schedule Number: 21 Piece: 1504 Folio: 220 Page Number: 5 Household Members: Name Age George Macey 49 Sarah Macey 46 John Macey 21 Henry Macey 7 Sarah Macey 5 George Macey 3 Lucy Macey 9 Mo
MACEY, HENRY mmn WINDMILL GRO Reference: 1843 D Quarter in HACKNEY UNION Volume 03 Page 183
MACEY, SARAH ANN mmn WINDMILL GRO Reference: 1845 D Quarter in HACKNEY UNION Volume 03 Page 195
MACEY, GEORGE mmn WINDMILL GRO Reference: 1848 J Quarter in HACKNEY UNION Volume 03 Page 202
MACEY, LUCY ELLEN mmn WINDMILL GRO Reference: 1851 M Quarter in HACKNEY UNION Volume 03 Page 234
Possibly Lucy's death: MASSEY, LUCY 0 GRO Reference: 1851 J Quarter in HACKNEY UNION Volume 03 Page 154
Three of the many children of George and Sarah were baptised on 13 Sept 1840 in Hackney - Charles, Emily, and William Henry.
Charles Macey in the London, England, Church of England Births and Baptisms, 1813-1920 Name: Charles Macey Gender: Male Record Type: Baptism Baptism Date: 13 Sep 1840 Baptism Place: Hackney, Hackney, England Father: George Macey Mother: Sarah Macey Register Type: Parish Register
But I think that Charles (baptised 1840) is the husband of the widowed Elizabeth: - address 9 Abbott Street at marriage:
Charles Macey in the London, England, Church of England Marriages and Banns, 1754-1936 Name: Charles Macey Gender: Male Marriage Age: 27 Record Type: Marriage Birth Date: abt 1830 Marriage Date: 1 Feb 1857 Marriage Place: St Philip, Bethnal Green, Tower Hamlets, England Father: George Macey Spouse: Elizabeth Beavis Register Type: Parish Register
Birth of the grand-daughter Elizabeth:
MACCY, ELIZABETH ASENETH mmn BEAVIS GRO Reference: 1858 M Quarter in HACKNEY Volume 01B Page 313
Death of the Charles who married Elizabeth:
MACEY, CHARLES 30 GRO Reference: 1860 M Quarter in HACKNEY Volume 01B Page 246
Elizabeth Macey (nee Beavis) remarried in Hackney in 1863, to Edwin George Crutchfield, and had several more children. 1871 - they're in Leyton, Essex; 1881 - they're in Glenarm Road, Hackney. In 1888 they emigrated to Philadelphia, USA. She died in New Hampshire in 1913.
But I digress.
I don't see Charles 1844 at any time other than 1861.
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BrianW
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4 Jun 2021 22:11 |
Thank you Gran, that's a lot to take in.
Jane c. 1826 nee Crawley married to Charles is a right pain with regard to her age on the censuses: 1841 15 looks OK-ish 1851 25 looks OKiish 1861 31 would be 35 1871 44 looks OK-ish 1881 45 would be 55 1891 69 would be 65
If she died in Hackney the most plausible seems in 1896 with the age given as 74 which would tie up with the 1891 census but put her birth back to 1822. Hackney 1b 363 Dec qtr. 1896
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ArgyllGran
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5 Jun 2021 09:51 |
1861 census says she was born in Ware, Herts. Other censuses only say Hertfordshire, or London.
Her father was James, a tailor, per her marriage cert. But there's no sign of a likely birth or baptism.
A James Crawley married in Ware in 1825, to Sarah Frances - but I don't know what his occupation was, and don't see them later.
Re the 1896 death - looks like another cert needed!
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BrianW
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13 Jun 2021 15:39 |
2 certs ordered, should arrive mid-week. Ann Elizabeth Macey birth 1880 and Jane Harris death 1896.
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Click ADD REPLY button - not this link!
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14 Jun 2021 03:39 |
Here's another daughter:
Name: Mother's Maiden Surname: HARRIS, EMILY CRAWLEY GRO Reference: 1852 J Quarter in EDMONTON Volume 03A Page 105
She died the following year.
Rose
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BrianW
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15 Jun 2021 08:58 |
Jane Harris death 1896 is unconnected.
But Ann Elizabeth Macey born @ 4 Middle Street on 13 June 1880 is the daughter of Elizabeth Macey, formerly Harris, and Charles Macey. Registered by C Macey, father on 21 July 1880.
Elizabeth looks to be the eldest Harris daughter (1848) but Ann's baptism on 4th July is in the Harris surname !
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ArgyllGran
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15 Jun 2021 09:20 |
Thanks for letting us know, Brian.
Good news about Ann Elizabeth
Jane was 69 per 1891 census posted earlier, and still living in Hackney.
Other possibilities - going by her probable YOB 1822, though none in Hackney:
Deaths Mar 1894 (>99%) Harris Jane 72 St. Geo. H. Sq. 1a 322
Deaths Sep 1896 (>99%) Harris Jane 74 Paddington 1a 21
Deaths Mar 1898 (>99%) Harris Jane 77 Pancras 1b 15
Deaths Dec 1903 (>99%) Harris Jane 82 Paddington 1a 38
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BrianW
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15 Jun 2021 10:02 |
I think I'd sent for the certificate before I saw you post about her still living in 1891, never mind.
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ArgyllGran
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15 Jun 2021 10:09 |
The cert you sent for was 1896 - so a perfectly good option on the face of it.
Ages stated on death certs are only as good as what the informant believes to be true.
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BrianW
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15 Jun 2021 11:12 |
On the face of it my grandmother, Jane Macey, and Ann Elizabeth, MAY be half sisters, sharing Charles Macey as their father.
This is really making a mess of my tree which was built on the assumption that all those shown on the censuses as Harris, were Harris, but half turn out to be Maceys !!!!
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