Genealogy Chat

Re the Live and Let Live, in the court reports posted by Alviegal -

Yesterday I found a census with Norrises at the Live and Let Live.
I thought I'd posted it, but obviously didn't - and now I can't for the life of me find it again!
Aaaaghh!

EDIT:
Here it is. This William Norris is the father of Susan, Samuel, etc.
I was sure I'd posted it somewhere.
However, I'll post it here (again ?)

In 1861 he's in Back Street, Brentwood, claiming to be married to Ann Groves, then in 1871 he's at the Live and Let Live, and they're not "married" any more.

William Norris
in the 1861 England Census
Name: William Norris
Age: 54
Estimated Birth Year: 1807
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Ann Norris
Gender: Male
Where born: Stock, Essex, England
Civil Parish: South Weald
Town: Brentwood
County/Island: Essex
Country: England
Street Address: - Back Street
Occupation:
Condition as to marriage:
View image
Registration District: Billericay
Sub-registration District: Brentwood
ED, institution, or vessel: 1
Neighbors:
Household Schedule Number: 37
Piece: 1075
Folio: 6
Page Number: 7
Household Members:
Name Age
William Norris 54
Ann Norris 24
Joseph Norris 15 - son, Downham, Essex
Eliza Groves 5 - daughter-in-law (step-daughter), Abridge, Essex


William Norris
in the 1871 England Census
Name: William Norris
Age: 64
Estimated Birth Year: 1807
Relation: Head
Gender: Male
Where born: Stock Essex England
Civil parish: Brentwood
Town: Brentwood
County/Island: Essex
Country: England
Registration district: Billericay
Sub-registration district: Brentwood
ED, institution, or vessel: 1
Household schedule number: 23
Piece: 1656
Folio: 7
Page number: 5
Household Members Age Relationship
William Norris 64 Head, widower
Ann Groves 23 Servant, unmarried
Eliza Groves 15 Daughter
James Ward 60 Lodger

Address: The Live and Let Live


There are a few possibilities for Eliza's birth:

GROVES, ELIZA -
GRO Reference: 1855 M Quarter in BRENTFORD Volume 03A Page 39

GROVES, ELIZA -
GRO Reference: 1855 J Quarter in ONGAR Volume 04A Page 67

GROVES, ELIZABETH -
GRO Reference: 1855 J Quarter in BRENTFORD Volume 03A Page 34


I don't see Joseph's birth .

William's wife (mother of Susan, Samuel, etc) - nee Robinson - died in 1845:

Ann Norris
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1837-1915
Name: Ann Norris
Registration Quarter: Apr-May-Jun
Death Registration Place: Billericay, Essex, United Kingdom
Death Date: Jun 1845
Inferred Death Place: Essex, United Kingdom
Volume: 12
Page: 11

1871 England, Wales & Scotland Census
Blind Pond Cottages, Downham, Billericay, Essex, England

Household members (8 people)
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
William Norriss Head ag lab Male 45 1826 - Essex, England
Hannah Norriss Wife Female 40 1831 - Essex, England
Samuel Norriss Son Male 15 1856 - Essex, England
Emma Norriss Daughter Female 12 1859 - Essex, England
Elizabeth M A Norriss Daughter Female 7 1864 - Essex, England
Louis J Norriss Son Male 5 1866 - Essex, England
Katey Norriss Daughter Female 0 1871 - Essex, England
David Clark Lodger Male 35 1836 - Essex, England


1861 England, Wales & Scotland Census
Butts, Downham, Billericay, Essex, England

Household members (6 people)
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
William Norriss Head Married Male 36 1825 Agricultural labourer Ramsden Bellhouse, Essex, England
Hannah Norriss Wife Married Female 30 1831 Agricultural labourers wife South Hanningfield, Essex, England
Susan H Norriss Daughter Unmarried Female 7 1854 - South Hanningfield, Essex, England
Samuel E Norriss Son Unmarried Male 5 1856 - Runwell, Essex, England
Emma Norriss Daughter Unmarried Female 2 1859 - Runwell, Essex, England
Amelia Norriss Daughter Unmarried Female 0 1861 - Downham, Essex, England

William Farren, for assaulting William Norris, of the Hit or Miss beerhouse, the 13th inst., knocking him down and otherwise injuring him, was fined 11s. 6d. and costs...
26 February 1864 - Chelmsford Chronicle - Chelmsford, Essex, England


William Morris, of the Live and Let Live beerhouse, Brentwood, three deficient quart measures, 10s. and 8s. 6d.
20 December 1867 - Essex Standard - Colchester, Essex, England


Richard Frostick, chimney sweep, of Brentwood, was fined 5s. and costs 10s. for an assault upon William Norris, landlord of the " Live and let live" beerhouse, Brentwood.—lt appeared from the evidence that the defendant was severely....
21 August 1868 - Chelmsford Chronicle - Chelmsford, Essex, England


... certificates of the Prince Wales (James Croucher), Star (Charles Smith). Rose Crown (Charles Childs), and Live and Let Live (William Norris), beerhouses Brentwood, were suspended for a fortnight in order that evidence might be taken as to the landlords harbouring prostitutes....
08 September 1871 - Chelmsford Chronicle - Chelmsford, Essex, England


Not sure if any of these pertain to your William Norris.

Have you checked out the will of William Norris? Probate of the will was given to widow Hannah in 1882, William is described as a beerkeeper.

Might be wrong, but I think you can get an electronic copy of the will and probate for £1.50.

https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/#calendar

Might be worth a punt to see if Susan is mentioned, and if so, how she is described.

thank you
as ArgyllGran says who knows
than anyway

Def right family
Charles sansom is with willian and Hannah in 1881

Charles Sampson
Age: 4
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1877
Relationship to Head: Grandson
Gender: Male
Where born: London, Middlesex, England
Civil Parish: Brentwood
County/Island: Essex
Country: England
Street Address: Back Street Public Hse Anchor Inn ?
Education:
Employment status:
View image
Occupation: Scholar
Registration District: Billericay
ED, institution, or vessel: 1b
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 1756
Folio: 38
Page Number: 8
Household Members:
Name Age
William Norris 55 publican
Hannah Norris 51
Louis J. Norris 15
Kate Norris 10
Jessie Harrington 21
Charles Sampson 4
Ada Norris 2
Wm. Smith 42
Priscilla Smith 37
Wm. Jackson 32
John Smith 53
Ann Smith 31
John Smith 4
William Gray 21
Edward Miller 20
George Russell 25
Edmund Fewell 24
George Hill 19
George Paterson 33
George Fewell 15

Looks like she has three children by Charles’s sansom

They are with her in 1891 with her second husband

Name: Alfred Sansom
Gender: Male
Age: 12
Relationship: Son
Birth Year: 1879
Father: Thomas C Tredgold
Mother: Susan Tredgold
Birth Place: Islington, London, England
Civil Parish: Hackney
Ecclesiastical parish: St Peters De Beauvoir Town
Residence Place: Hackney, Hackney, London, England
Registration District: Hackney
Sub registration district: West Hackney
ED, Institution or Vessel: 15
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 188
Folio: 6
Household Members:
Name Age
Thomas C Tredgold 44
Susan Tredgold 37
Thomas Tredgold 3
Martha V Tredgold 1
Charles Sansom 14
Alfred Sansom 12
Lewis W Sansom 9


SAMSON, LOUIS WILLIAM NORRIS
GRO Reference: 1881 D Quarter in EDMONTON Volume 03A Page 270


SANSON, CHARLES WILLIAM NORRIS
GRO Reference: 1877 M Quarter in SHOREDITCH Volume 01C Page 76

Kucinta

Ancestry has the parish marriage cert online and it’s def Morris

She gives her father as James Morris breweyman and she signs as Morris

It did seem to tie up though because are on the 1881 census with a son mmn Norris !

Re ErikaH's thought that perhaps William Norris had been married before - it doesn't look like it:


1861 says his birthplace was Ramsden Bellhouse, and his marriage record says his father's name was also William.
He's unmarried in 1851.

William Norris
in the 1851 England Census
Name: William Norris
Age: 26
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1825
Relation: Son
Father's Name: William Norris
Gender: Male
Where born: Ramsden Bell House, Essex, England
Civil Parish: Downham
Phillimore Ecclesiastical Parish Maps:
View related Ecclesiastical Parish
County/Island: Essex
Country: England
Street Address:
Occupation:
Condition as to marriage:
Disability:
View image
Registration District: Billericay
Sub-registration District: Brentwood
ED, institution, or vessel: 8
Neighbors:
Household Schedule Number: 36
Piece: 1774
Folio: 546
Page Number: 11
Household Members:
Name Age
William Norris 50
William Norris 26
John Norris 15
Amelia Norris 12
Walter Norris 13
Samuel Norris 8

There's no sign of a marriage between 1851 and 1854.

Perhaps either he or Hannah (or both) didn't want to commit to a marriage until there was definitely a live child to support.

Perhaps Hannah didn't want to walk down the aisle while obviously pregnant.

Perhaps, perhaps - who knows?

Charles Sansom married Susan Hannah L Norris Mar 1875 Islington 1b 432.

Postem confirms his bride was Susan Norris.

View 1881 England Census
Name: Susan Sansom
Age: 27
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1854
Relationship to Head: Wife
Spouse: Charles W. Sansom
Gender: Female
Where born: So Hanningfield, Essex, England
Civil Parish: Tottenham
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England
Street Address: 42 Templeton Road
Marital status: Married
Education:
Employment status:
View image
Registration District: Edmonton
ED, institution, or vessel: 25
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 1385
Folio: 73
Page Number: 17
Household Members:
Name Age
Charles W. Sansom 28
Susan Sansom 27
Alfred Sansom 2


Name: Mother's Maiden Surname:
SANSON, ALFRED NORRIS
GRO Reference: 1879 J Quarter in ISLINGTON Volume 01B Page 260


So seems she still used Norris as her surname

Edit

Charles William Sansom
Age: 30
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1855
Registration Quarter: Jan-Feb-Mar
Death Registration Place: Islington, London, United Kingdom
Death Date: Mar 1885
Inferred Death Place: London, United Kingdom
Volume: 1b
Page: 256

Soo looks like she married a sansom was widowed and remarried

Susan Sansom
Gender: Female
Record Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 14 Feb 1891
Marriage Place: St Peter, Hackney, Hackney, England
Spouse:
Thomas Clarke Tredgold
Register Type: Parish Register

Fathers name William Norris deceased occ publican

Alternatively, if Norris was Susan’s father, why didn’t he marry the mother BEFORE the birth? Or, did he already have a wife?

Ancestry has a transcript of the marriage Shirley posted, but no image.

Father is recorded as ISAAC Norris

1st Feb 1875, Stock, All Saints, Essex.

Groom's father recorded as John Sanders

Bride was aged 19, groom was of full age.

Susan Sanders nee Norris remarries as a widow 11th Dec 1899, to James John Winterbottom at St Luke, West Norwood, Lambeth.

Image records her father as ISAAC Norriss, deceased horsekeeper.

Witnesses Ellen & Edwin Sanders

She is allegedly aged 36 for the 1899 marriage...her widowed groom was aged 50.

EDIT, She must be a different Susan Norris, with parents Isaac & Elizabeth and sibs in 1861 at Ramsden Bellhouse, Essex.

so true
4 of my ggg parents are missing for the same reason :-(

I'd give it good odds, but unfortunately unless there's proof .............

Married as Norris

But then she probably thought William was her father

Susan Norris
Registration Year: 1875
Registration Quarter: Jan-Feb-Mar
Registration District: Chelmsford
Parishes for this Registration District: View Ecclesiastical Parishes associated with this Registration District
Inferred County: Essex
Volume: 4a
Page: 245
Records on Page:
Name
Susan Norris
Edwin Sanders

No father named

Name: Susan Hannah Neville
Baptism Date: 16 Apr 1854
Baptism Place: South Hanningfield, Essex, England
Mother: Hannah Neville
FHL Film Number: 001472340

Her birth

Name: Mother's Maiden Surname:
NEVEILL, SUSAN HANNAH -
GRO Reference: 1854 M Quarter in CHELMSFORD Volume 04A Page 122

So looks like her husband took on her daughter

NORRIS, SAMUEL JAMES NEVEILL
GRO Reference: 1856 M Quarter in CHELMSFORD Volume 04A Page 136

1861 census

Name: Samuell F Norriss
Age: 5
Estimated Birth Year: 1856
Relation: Son
Father's Name: William Norriss
Mother's Name: Hannah Norriss
Gender: Male
Where born: Runwell, Essex, England
Civil Parish: Downham
County/Island: Essex
Country: England
Street Address:
Occupation:
Condition as to marriage:
View image
Registration District: Billericay
Sub-registration District: Wickford
ED, institution, or vessel: 4
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Schedule Number: 30
Piece: 1077
Folio: 28
Page Number: 4
Household Members:
Name Age
William Norriss 36
Hannah Norriss 30
Susan H Norriss 7
Samuell F Norriss 5
Emer Norriss 2
Amelie Norriss 4

Quite possibly- but unless he was named on the baptism record you can never be certain