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ArgyllGran
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14 Oct 2020 23:12 |
The Shoreditch William Henry's birth already posted, along with possible 1871 for him, with uncle John Joseph Hind, born Worksop, Notts.
However, John Joseph was born c1845, and Edward was born c1826 , per census - seems too big a gap for them to be brothers.
ADDED:
also John J was born in Worksop, and Edward apparently in:London
Edward Hind in the 1851 England Census Name: Edward Hind Age: 24 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1827 Relation: Head Spouse's Name: Sophia Hind Gender: Male Where born: St Georges East, Middlesex, England Civil Parish: Shoreditch Ecclesiastical parish: Haggerstone West Phillimore Ecclesiastical Parish Maps: View related Ecclesiastical Parish County/Island: Middlesex Country: England Street Address: Occupation: Condition as to marriage: Disability: View image Registration District: Shoreditch Sub-registration District: Haggerstone West ED, institution, or vessel: 27 Neighbors: Household Schedule Number: 108 Piece: 1537 Folio: 546 Page Number: 22 Household Members: Name Age Edward Hind 24 Sophia Hind 23
I suppose it's possible "nephew" didn't really mean nephew - clutching at straws!
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safc
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14 Oct 2020 23:13 |
hi KeithG
might be time to buy some certs ?
marriage and florences birth cert ?
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ArgyllGran
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15 Oct 2020 14:01 |
William Henry Hind/Phillips was born c1864 in Shoreditch, per both 1901 and 1911 censuses.
I had suggested an 1871 census for a possible William Hind with uncle John Joseph Hind. (But I don't think that's the right one.)
At the risk of sending us off on another false trail, there's also this possibility :
William Phillips in the 1871 England Census Name: William Phillips Age: 7 Estimated Birth Year: 1864 Relation: Son Gender: Male Where born: Shoreditch Middlesex England Civil Parish: St Leonard Shoreditch Ecclesiastical parish: St John Hoxton County/Island: London Country: England Registration District: Shoreditch Sub-registration District: Hoxton New Town ED, institution, or vessel: 24 Household Schedule Number: 95 Piece: 450 Folio: 47 Page Number: 15 Household Members: Name Age William Phillips 40 - Brompton, private enquiry agent (!) Henrietta Phillips 37 - City of London William Phillips 7 - Shoreditch Alice Phillips 19 months - Shoreditch
Address: 12 Bevendon Street.
There's a Francis Hinde living next door at No 11, but I expect that's a coincidence.
The daughter Alice is 19 months old in April 1871, therefore born approx July 1869. There's no Alice Phillips born in Shoreditch at that time.
But there is this birth - possibly not hers:
HIND, ALICE mms SMITH GRO Reference: 1869 S Quarter in SHOREDITCH Volume 01C Page 100
However, no birth of a William with mms Smith c1864 - at least not in Shoreditch..
Can't see a marriage of Wiliam and Henrietta.
William Hy. Phillipps in the 1881 England Census Name: William Hy. Phillipps Age: 17 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1864 Relationship to Head: Son Father: William Hy. Phillipps Mother: Henrietta Phillipps Gender: Male Where born: Shoreditch Civil Parish: Hackney County/Island: London Country: England Street Address: 33 Sedgwick St Education: Employment status: View image Occupation: Clerk Shipping <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Registration District: Hackney Sub registration district: West Hackney ED, institution, or vessel: 41 Neighbors: Piece: 309 Folio: 65 Page Number: 18 Household Members: Name Age William Hy. Phillipps 44 - Warwickshire, railway shipping clerk Henrietta Phillipps 42 - Middlesex William Hy. Phillipps 17 Alice Phillipps 11 - Shoreditch Frederick C. Phillipps 10 - nephew, Islington
Re occupation "shipping clerk" - Poppy's father was a delivery foreman in a dock warehouse in 1901, and a "shipper" at his marriage to Florence.
William senior's stated birthplace of Warwick(shire) may be a mistake, as the person on the line above was born in Warwick, and there are just ditto signs on William's line.
Possible death of Henrietta (though Ancestry suggests this may be a different Henrietta, married to a George Edward Phhillips):
Henrietta Phillips in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1837-1915 Name: Henrietta Phillips Estimated Birth Year: abt 1840 Registration Year: 1896 Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec Age at Death: 56 Registration District: Hackney Inferred County: London Volume: 1b Page: 327
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ArgyllGran
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15 Oct 2020 14:04 |
Alice's marriage:
Alice Phillipps in the Westminster, London, England, Church of England Marriages and Banns, 1754-1935 Name: Alice Phillipps Gender: Female Age: 28 Birth Date: abt 1870 Marriage Date: 10 Sep 1898 Marriage Place: St Martin-In-The-Fields, London, Westminster, England Parish as it Appears: St Martin in the Fields Father: William Henry Phillipps - deceased, porter Spouse: William Henry Robertson
Address of both: 6 York Buildings. Witnesses: C T Howard, and Sarah Jane Robertson
Alice in 1939:
Alice Robertson in the 1939 England and Wales Register Name: Alice Robertson Gender: Female Marital status: Widowed Birth Date: 8 Jun 1869 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Residence Year: 1939 Address: 31 Residence Place: Hackney, London, England Occupation: Theatre Cleaner Line Number: 42 Schedule Number: 53 Sub Schedule Number: 1 Enumeration District: AITC Borough: Hackney Registration District: 12 - 3. Household Members: Name Alice Robertson Frank J Robertson - 2 March 1912
Births Jun 1912 (>99%) Robertson Frank J Phillipps Hackney 1b 766
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ArgyllGran
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15 Oct 2020 14:34 |
Possible death of William seniior - can't tell his YOB from censuses:
Deaths Sep 1891 (>99%) PHILLIPPS William Henry 52 Hackney 1b 296
Also note that Phillipps is spelled with the double p at the end in William's marriage to Florence Petherick, and in 1901 census, as well as in 1881, and at Alice's marriage and Frank's birth.
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KeithG
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15 Oct 2020 16:26 |
Hello again ArgyllGran, and thank you for your continued interest.
I'd see the Henrietta family but I had discounted it. I found (but can no longer find) a military record for their son William, the dates of which ruled out him being the William Phillipps in question.
I'd also examined the double "l" link. My conclusion was that it was unreliable as an indicator as it was variably spelled for the same person.
I think, as safc says, it's probably time to order some certificates: Poppy's birth certificate should eliminate any confusion over her mother, so I'll order that.
Her marriage certificate probably wouldn't add much beyond this transcription:
Essex Marriages And Banns 1537-1935
First name(s) Florence Poppy Mary Annie Phillipps Last name Hind Residence 148 Essex Rd Leyton Marriage year 1918 Marriage date 17 Apr 1918 Place Leyton, St Paul County Essex Spouse's first name(s) Augustine Spouse's last name Cannell Spouse's marital status B Spouse's residence On Active Service Father's first name(s) William Henry Father's last name Hind Father's occupation Cork Factor <<< Spouse's father's first name(s) Anthony Spouse's father's last name Cannell Country England Event type Marriages Archive Essex Record Office Archive reference WF/L83 7 RM 2 Page number 35 Record set Essex Marriages And Banns 1537-1935 Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records Subcategory Parish Marriages Collections from England, Great Britain © Ada Brady 2019
I thought the father's occupation was interesting ...
I'd love to order william Henry Hind's marriage to Petherick - if only I could find a reference to it!
This is getting creepy: William Henry Hind's occupation in 1911 - Dock Warehouse Foreman William Henry Phillipps' occupation in 1901 - Delivery Foreman Dock Warehouse
Again, many thanks safc and ArgyllGran
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ArgyllGran
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15 Oct 2020 16:53 |
Keith - have you been able to see an actual image of Poppy's marriage record?
Is it possible that her father's occupation is a mistranscription of "dock porter"?
I know yu thnk there may have been a Hind/Petherick marriage - but I'm still inclined to think that William Henry sometimes called himself Hind. But - I have no dea why he would do so!
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KeithG
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15 Oct 2020 16:58 |
No, only the transcription, ArgyllGran, a reason to order the certificate perhaps? Only someone with a crossword mind would spot that! Brilliant!
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ArgyllGran
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15 Oct 2020 17:47 |
You mentioned a military record.
The only one I can see which, on the face of it, looks as if it could he his, is this one:
UK, Royal Hospital Chelsea Pensioner Soldier Service Records, 1760-1920 Name: William Henry Phillips Enlistment Age: 19 Birth Date: abt 1865 Birth Place: Shoreditch, Middlesex Enlistment Year: 1884 Regiment: 19 Hussars Regimental Number: 2546 Attestation Paper: Yes
However, a Fold3 sub is needed to see the details.
William Henry Phillips in the 1891 England Census Name: William Henry Phillips Gender: Male Age: 25 Relationship: Soldier Birth Year: 1866 Birth Place: Shoreditch, Middlesex, England Civil Parish: Aldershot Ecclesiastical parish: St Michael Residence Place: Aldershot, Aldershot, Hampshire, England Registration District: Farnham Sub registration district: Frimley ED, Institution or Vessel: Cavalry Barracks [ 19th Hussars ] Neighbors: Piece: 566 Folio: 108
Unless the Fold3 papers prove it one way or the other, there's no reason to suppose this isn't him .
I don't see him anywhere else in 1891.
Poppy's with her Petherick grandparents in 1891, as you know.
Poppy's mother is also in Aldershot in 1891;
Florence Phillips in the 1891 England Census Name: Florence Phillips Gender: Female Age: 22 Relationship: Head Birth Year: 1869 Child: William T Phillips Violet Phillips Mable Phillips Birth Place: St James, London, England Civil Parish: Aldershot Ecclesiastical parish: Holy Trinity Residence Place: Aldershot, Aldershot, Hampshire, England Registration District: Farnham Sub registration district: Frimley ED, Institution or Vessel: 3 Neighbors: Piece: 563 Folio: 83 Household Members: Name Age Florence Phillips 22 William T Phillips 1 Violet Phillips 5/12 Mable Phillips 5/12
No doubt Florence had enough to deal with, coping with three babies, including presumably sickly twins, while her husband was in the army - so Poppy was sent to her grandparents for a while.
And there again is the Hind/Phillips strangeness - Poppy is Hind in 1891, while the rest of the family are Phillips.
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ArgyllGran
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15 Oct 2020 18:39 |
Moving on to Sophia and James Tyler -
you noted that Sophia is "sister-in-law" to William Phillips senior in 1891. But James Tyler is "brother-in-law", which could equally mean that Sophia was William's sister. Or half-sister or similar.
Although they only married in 1886, here are Sophia and James in 1881:
Sophia Tyler in the 1881 England Census Name: Sophia Tyler Age: 43 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1838 Relationship to Head: Wife Spouse: James Tyler Gender: Female Where born: Shoreditch, Middlesex, England Civil Parish: St John Hackney County/Island: London Country: England Street Address: 177 Wick Road Marital status: Married Education: Employment status: View image Registration District: Hackney Sub registration district: South Hackney ED, institution, or vessel: 12 Neighbors: Piece: 316 Folio: 16 Page Number: 25 Household Members: Name Age James Tyler 37 - boot maker Sophia Tyler 43
and 1871:
Sophia Tyler in the 1871 England Census Name: Sophia Tyler Age: 29 Estimated Birth Year: 1842 Relation: Wife Gender: Female Where born: Bermondsey Middlesex England Civil Parish: Shoreditch Ecclesiastical parish: St John The Baptist Hoxton County/Island: London Country: England Registration District: Shoreditch Sub-registration District: Hoxton Old Town ED, institution, or vessel: 6 Household Schedule Number: 432 Piece: 454 Folio: 86 Page Number: 69 Household Members: Name Age James Tyler 27 - shoemaker Sophia Tyler 29
You'll need their marriage cert to find out her father's name.
As it's not clear from the censuses exactly where or when she was born, I can't see her definitively before 1871.
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KeithG
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15 Oct 2020 20:16 |
Regarding Florence Petherick in Aldershot, I quite agree with the reasoning, I'm sure she had her hands more than full. It has to be her, the childrens' names and ages match, but her age in that record is wrong. I'll try again to find that military record, it was on FMP or Ancestry I'm pretty sure.
On the Hind / Phillipps duality, I agree that him / them changing names is a possible explanation - but why? and why would Poppy use both? I've no evidence for a Hind-Petherick marriage, that was the point of the search! That argues, too, for one person with two names. Which was what started me looking at the Hind family and led me to find the Tylers.
My interpretation of the sister in law / brother in law descriptions was that Sophia was the sister of William's wife. James Tyler is unlikely to be William's brother (could be half brother perhaps), and if Sophia was William's sister then the description would be sister rather than sister in law.
You pointing out the date discrepancy for James & Sophia's marriage made me go back and re-examine why I settled on the 1886 marriage. I fear it may have been my reaction to finding "Hind" and I thought "yes!". I'm now wondering whether one of the other James Tyler - Sophia marriages might be a better choice, eg 1858.
I'll look for that military record. It's irritating: as I decided it meant I was barking up the wrong tree, I dismissed it ...
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