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KeithG
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14 Oct 2020 20:33 |
I'd be grateful for some help, please, with an intractable problem. It concerns Poppy and it may turn into a long read. Here's her GRO record:
HIND, FLORENCE POPPY MARY ANNIE PETHERICK GRO Reference: 1888 M Quarter in HACKNEY Volume 01B Page 584
I have found her in C1891 (where she is Popy Hene) and C1911 but have so far not been able to find her in C1901. Her MMN is given as Petherick (the family I'm investigating) but I have failed to find a Petherick - Hind marriage.
In later life she seems to have used Hind and Phillipps (various spellings), here's her marriage record for example:
Name: Florence Poppy Mary Annie Phillippe Hind Gender: Female Marriage Age: 29 Birth Date: abt 1889 Marriage Place: Leyton, St Paul, Essex, England Marriage Date: 17 Apr 1918 Father: William Henry Hind Spouse: Augustine Cannell
There is a Petherick - Phillipps marriage:
Name: William Henry Phillipps Gender: Male Marriage Age: 22 Record Type: Marriage Birth Date: abt 1864 Marriage Date: 18 Oct 1886 Marriage Place: West Hackney, Hackney, England Father: William Henry Phillipps Spouse: Florence Petherick Register Type: Parish Register
Given both "Florence" and "Phillipps" in her name, plus her DoB just after the marriage, these seem (highly) likely to be her parents. If so, where does "Hind" come from?
In a parallel search, I have found in C1891:
Name: Sophia Lyles Gender: Female Age: 52 Relationship: Sister-in-law Birth Year: 1839 Birth Place: Finsbury, London, England Civil Parish: Hackney Ecclesiastical parish: St Barnabus Residence Place: Hackney, London, England Registration District: Hackney Sub registration district: Hackney ED, Institution or Vessel: 44 Neighbors: View others on page Piece: 202 Folio: 105 Household Members: Name Age William Phillips 62 James Lyles 48 Sophia Lyles 52
Now it turns out that Lyles is a mis-transcription of Tyler, and Sophie was born Sophie Hind
Record Transcription: England & Wales Marriages 1837-2005 First name(s) JAMES Last name TYLER Marriage quarter 3 Marriage year 1886 Registration month - MarriageFinder ™
JAMES TYLER married one of these people
Sophia Hind, Emma Maria Pullin
District Hackney District number - County London Country England Volume 1B Volume as transcribed 1B Page number 877 Record set England & Wales Marriages 1837-2005 Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records Subcategory Civil Marriage & Divorce Collections from Great Britain, England
and:
James Tyler Head Married Male 37 1844 Boot Maker Sheerness, Kent, England Sophia Tyler Wife Married Female 43 1838 - Shoreditch, Middlesex, England
Noting that Sophia was "sister jn law" to William Phillips in C1891, this suggests a connection, but I have so far been able to demonstrate one.
This has been further complicated by a plethora of William Henry Phillip(p)s .
What I am looking for is evidence that Poppy really was the daughter of Florence Petherick - or not of course, an explanation of where Hind fits in, and which William Henry Phillipps is the father of the WHP who married Florence Petherick (I think I have already eliminated the WHP who married Henrietta).
Might someone be able and willing to help please?
Many thanks
Keth
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ArgyllGran
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14 Oct 2020 21:28 |
Florence Poppy in 1901:
Florence P Phillipps in the 1901 England Census Name: Florence P Phillipps Age: 12 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1889 Relation to Head: Daughter Gender: Female Father: William H Phillipps Mother: Florence Phillipps Birth Place: Hackney, London, England Civil Parish: Hackney Ecclesiastical parish: St John Hackney County/Island: London Country: England Street Address: 344 Mare Street Registration District: Hackney Sub-registration District: Central Hackney ED, institution, or vessel: 11 Neighbors: Piece: 217 Folio: 96 Page Number: 7 Household Schedule Number: 19 Household Members: Name Age William H Phillipps 37 - Shoreditch, delivery foreman, dock warehouse Florence Phillipps 33 - Hackney Florence P Phillipps 12 - Hackney Thomas W Phillipps 11 - Hackney
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KeithG
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14 Oct 2020 21:34 |
Well goodness me! Now why on earth couldn't I find that (don't answer that ). Thank you ArgyllGran!
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safc
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14 Oct 2020 21:50 |
Name: Mother's Maiden Surname: HIND, WILLIAM THOMAS PETHERICK PETHERICK GRO Reference: 1889 S Quarter in HACKNEY Volume 01B Page 572
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ArgyllGran
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14 Oct 2020 22:00 |
The name Phillips also comes into the mix in Florence senior's mother's name:
Martha Emily Phillips Rogers in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Marriage Index, 1837-1915 Name: Martha Emily Phillips Rogers Registration Year: 1848 Registration Quarter: Jan-Feb-Mar Registration District: Truro Inferred County: Cornwall Volume: 9 Page: 313 Records on Page: Name Thomas Petherick Martha Emily Phillips Rogers
Both parents died in Hackney - Thomas in 1890 and Martha in 1898.
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KeithG
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14 Oct 2020 22:04 |
Well that implies there was a Petherick - Hind marriage, doesn't it? Thank you safc!
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safc
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14 Oct 2020 22:06 |
Record Transcription: 1881 England, Wales & Scotland Census
15, Bishops Road, Hackney, London & Middlesex, England
Household Members Members that resided in the household at the time of the census. First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place Thomas Petherick Head Married Male 57 1824 Compositor Truro, Cornwall, England Martha Petherick Wife Married Female 50 1831 - Swansea, Glamorganshire, Wales Augustus Petherick Son Single Male 22 1859 Painter (House) Blackfriars, Middlesex, England Florence Petherick Daughter Single Female 18 1863 Milliner London, Middlesex, England xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Amelia Petherick Daughter Single Female 16 1865 - London, Middlesex, England Albert Petherick Son Single Male 14 1867 Errand Boy Hackney, Middlesex, England Eunice Petherick Daughter Single Female 7 1874 - Hackney, Middlesex, England Edward Rogers Lodger Single Male 40 1841 Painter (House) Wales Henry Kunz Lodger Head Married Male 46 1835 Traveller ? Germany Bessie Kunz Wife Married Female 26 1855 - Truro, Cornwall, England Lillian Kunz Daughter Single Female 6 1875 - Hackney, Middlesex, England Charles Kunz Son Single Male 5 1876 - Hackney, Middlesex, England
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KeithG
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14 Oct 2020 22:11 |
Yes, safc, that's the family. And Florence married William Henry Phillipps. Poppy was with the same family in 1891 and then with the Kunz family in 1911.
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KeithG
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14 Oct 2020 22:17 |
The grandparents marriage, Martha Emily Phillips Rogers, could be the source of the Phillipps name for Poppy but she seems to use it as a family / surname. I suspect the Petherick - Phillipps marriage is a more likely source tho'
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ArgyllGran
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14 Oct 2020 22:19 |
William Henry Hind in the 1911 England Census Name: William Henry Hind Age in 1911: 47 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1864 Relation to Head: Head Gender: Male Birth Place: Shoreditch, London, England Civil Parish: Walthamstow County/Island: Essex Country: England Street Address: 281 Wood St, Walthamstow Marital status: Married Occupation: Dock Warehouse Foreman Registration District: West Ham Registration District Number: 188 Sub-registration District: Walthamstow ED, institution, or vessel: 29 Piece: 9703 Household Members: Name Age William Henry Hind 47 Annie Hind 45 - Birmingham Thomas William Hind 21 - Hackney
Married 4 years.
???
William Henry Hind in the Essex, England, Church of England Marriages, 1754-1935 Name: William Henry Hind Gender: Male Marriage Age: 43 Birth Date: abt 1864 Marriage Place: Walthamstow, St Mary The Virgin, Essex, England Marriage Date: 30 Mar 1907 Father: Edward Hind Spouse: Annie Baragwanath
Father Edward?? When he married Poppy his father was also named William Henry Phillips - unless that was a mistake on the part of the registrar.
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ArgyllGran
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14 Oct 2020 22:23 |
Annie Baragwanath in the 1901 England Census Name: Annie Baragwanath Age: 38 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1863 Relation to Head: Stepdaughter Gender: Female Birth Place: Birmingham, Worcestershire, England Civil Parish: Walthamstow Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary Town: Walthamstow County/Island: Essex Country: England Street Address: Registration District: West Ham Sub-registration District: Walthamstow ED, institution, or vessel: 44 Neighbors: Piece: 1629 Folio: 115 Page Number: 47 Household Schedule Number: 287 Household Members: Name Age Lannie Baragwanath 55 Thomas Baragwanath 30 Richard Baragwanath 27 Frederick Baragwanath 25 Henry Baragwanath 22 William Baragwanath 20 Walsh Baragwanath 16 Annie Baragwanath 38
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ArgyllGran
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14 Oct 2020 22:29 |
?? Because birthplace given as shoreditch in 1911 census -
HIND, WILLIAM HENRY mms RAVEN GRO Reference: 1864 M Quarter in SHOREDITCH Volume 01C Page 161
???
William Hind in the 1871 England Census Name: William Hind Age: 8 Estimated Birth Year: 1863 Relation: Nephew Gender: Male Where born: London England Civil Parish: Worksop Ecclesiastical parish: St John Town: Worksop County/Island: Nottinghamshire Country: England Registration District: Worksop Sub-registration District: Worksop ED, institution, or vessel: 9 Household Schedule Number: 1 Piece: 3459 Folio: 63 Page Number: 1 Household Members: Name Age John Joseph Hind 26 Mary Hind 25 Sarah E Hind 6/12 - daughter William Hind 8 - nephew
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KeithG
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14 Oct 2020 22:32 |
I'd found that marriage to Annie and it's possible that it's a second marriage but I'd discounted it because the father's name didn't match. I also failed to find a "matching" death for his first wife - assuming that was Florence!
It's almost as if William Henry Phillipps was also known as William Henry Hind!
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safc
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14 Oct 2020 22:41 |
Name: Mother's Maiden Surname: HIND, FLORENCE POPPY MARY ANNIE PETHERICK GRO Reference: 1888 M Quarter in HACKNEY Volume 01B Page 584 HIND, MABEL PETHERICK GRO Reference: 1890 D Quarter in HACKNEY Volume 01B Page 495 HIND, VIOLET PETHERICK GRO Reference: 1890 D Quarter in HACKNEY Volume 01B Page 495
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ArgyllGran
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14 Oct 2020 22:45 |
Just in case the Shoreditch birth for William is correct -
HIND, LYDIA mms RAVEN GRO Reference: 1861 S Quarter in SHOREDITCH Volume 01C Page 157
Lydia Hind in the 1871 England Census Name: Lydia Hind Age: 10 Estimated Birth Year: 1861 Relation: Daughter Gender: Female Where born: Horton Civil Parish: Bethnal Green Ecclesiastical parish: St Paul County/Island: London Country: England Registration District: Bethnal Green Sub-registration District: Bethnal Church ED, institution, or vessel: 9 Household Schedule Number: 152 Piece: 493 Folio: 17 Page Number: 28 Household Members: Name Age Edward Hind 45 - shoemaker. [Birthplace unreadable.] Lydia Hind 10
Edward Hind in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Marriage Index, 1837-1915 Name: Edward Hind Registration Year: 1847 Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec Registration District: Shoreditch Inferred County: London Volume: 2 Page: 352 Records on Page: Name Edward Hind Sophia Raven
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KeithG
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14 Oct 2020 22:51 |
From the C1901 ArgyllGran found, the two children - Poppy and William - were called Phillipps. Yet they were both registered as Hind.
Florence & William were married 1886, the two children were born after that.
So, given their registration as Hind, it seems probable (?) that they were born to William Hind and another Petherick daughter. Then, for some reason, they were adopted by Florence & William.
Does that stand up to examination?
There is one Petherick daughter I have yet to identify:
PETHERICK, - ROGERS GRO Reference: 1869 S Quarter in HACKNEY Volume 01B Page 491
and another that I have yet to follow up:
Eunice, who appears in the C1881 but I have not yet found her GRO record.
I think we can rule out Eunice, but the unnamed Petherick might just be a candidate?
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KeithG
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14 Oct 2020 22:56 |
That marriage:
Edward Hind Sophia Raven
is interesting. There would be a strong probability that a daughter, assuming they had one, would also be named Sophia. Remember the Sophia Tyler who was William Phillipps' sister in law?
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KeithG
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14 Oct 2020 22:59 |
Based on the second marriage to Annie Baragwanath, William Hind's DoB is about 1864, in which case:
HIND, WILLIAM HENRY RAVEN GRO Reference: 1864 M Quarter in SHOREDITCH Volume 01C Page 161
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ArgyllGran
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14 Oct 2020 23:04 |
Deaths of the twins Mabel and Violet (Poppy's sisters):
HIND, VIOLET 0 GRO Reference: 1891 S Quarter in HACKNEY Volume 01B Page 316
HIND, MABEL 0 GRO Reference: 1891 S Quarter in HACKNEY Volume 01B Page 304
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KeithG
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14 Oct 2020 23:06 |
It's bed time here, I'm afraid, so I'll pick this up again tomorrow.
This discussion has been really helpful, it's opened up some new possibilities and filled in some gaps, but still hasn't come up with an explanation of the Hind / Phillipps duality.
Thank you!
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